Belonging, burnout and building culture from scratch – Sisa Sibanda

Sisa Sibanda (01:57)
When I arrived, was very much my, business had just changed CEO. So Martin Berg became the CEO one month before I arrived. I arrived in June 23. And the chief legal officer at the time was covering people, but he was also covering big company secretary and all the funds, a fund structure set up. know, with the prior.

P.H. (02:31)
Yeah, typical startup.

Sisa Sibanda (02:35)
people topics he was fitting it in but you know it was a lot for him so he was really... yeah so I think when I arrived the Chief Legal Officer was very glad to have me take over and it was very much like okay we've been on a massive sprint of fundraising in this challenging environment everyone is so focused on the mission

P.H. (02:36)
Yeah, Chief executive doing a bit of photocopying because, know, it just needed to be done. understand,

Sisa Sibanda (3:04)
because we started in lockdown and COVID and the pandemic, we have people in the US, three different states. We have some people in the Netherlands. have our head office is London, but people are generally in and out of it. And so that's our kind of employee base. And then because we've been on this sprint, well-being, some people are exhausted. You need to think about what you're gonna do on that. And then over time, and I was working,

there was no real infrastructure, no way to put down performance management processes. But they did have a DEIB committee and I think that was born out of a very international team. So right now we have 50 people and there are 45 different languages spoken. So it's a very international, multicultural team.

P.H. (10:56)
Forgive me, I

don't know what the B is on the DEIB.

Sisa Sibanda (3:59)
Oh, the D-E-I-B is so belonging. That was something I bought in when I arrived. This is my stamp. Yes.

P.H. (4:03)
so this is your stamp beginning to reveal itself. Okay,

good. I'm glad I asked the question because you know, when you think, I should know that D E I B I'll look at that later. But that's, that's a Cississibanda thing. And that's amazing. I like it. I love it. D E I B Belonging. Why is

Sisa Sibanda (5:12)
Oh no, God, you're not the best to ask.

Yeah. belonging to

me was really important because I think one of the things I was told when I was being recruited was that the connection to what makes CAM and being a team, it wasn't strong. So because we have everyone in their various houses or flats, probably working from kitchen, dining tables, that is CAM when they wake up, their laptop is CAM.

P.H. (5:39)
and

Climate asset

management is go from the minute they wake up to the minute. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Sisa Sibanda (5:49)
Yeah, yeah. So it was like what

makes people feel part of something beyond knowing that our North Star is the planet and, you know, doing what we can to improve things for the planet. yeah, so that way I meant, felt like belonging would force us to think about it more, be more intentional about it.

P.H. (6:06)
Okay, yeah.

I mean, I'm guessing there are some easy answers to this, but is there any more depth than inclusivity is about everyone, belonging is about the feeling? I don't know. What is the distinction there? How do you separate those two things? Because I would have thought inclusivity is belonging.

Sisa Sibanda (6:15)
Mmm.

Yeah, for me, and I think this probably comes from the fact I'm diverse, think inclusion is something that, you know, that everyone, you're saying, it's whether you feel you're part of the team regardless of where your lived experience is or your perspectives, that you feel heard, that you feel recognised. Even if the decision, you know, that's taken isn't going to go your way, you just feel heard.

And I think you can have inclusive processes and not feel heard at an individual level. And I felt that in previous worlds, previous teams, so in previous businesses. So I just felt like that was really important. And as I see it even now with this new narrative, DEI, diversity and equity inclusion narrative coming out of the US and other places, I feel it's because people haven't felt like they're part of it.

P.H. (6:53)
Yeah, right.

Sisa Sibanda (7:19)
There's lots of inclusive practices that actually in reality should benefit all of us, but people don't feel part of it. And that's the belongings been missing.

P.H. (8:26)
Is inclusivity something that is

done to us and belonging is something we can feel?

Sisa Sibanda (8:32)
Perhaps. I'm not sure I've ever really thought about it as much as that Penny. That's an interesting angle. I'm going to have give that some thought because I do think, yeah, I do think there is something missing and has been missing. And so for me, know, inclusion and belonging is really what we should be saying. That's the now, that's the story. And then if you achieve that, know one would complain. No one would feel they're not part of it, but.

P.H. (9:36)
You

Sisa Sibanda (9:57)
They do currently. There's some people who just don't feel that it's for them or that it serves them. It should. It should. If it's true inclusion, it should. Something's missing. So that's why I brought the bee in.

P.H. (10:03)
yes.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. That's

very smart. I really like that. Right, smart stamps from Cicis Banda. There's a literati n going crazy there, isn't it? Okay, so you came in as the HR director, but you've changed that, haven't you? You're now head of people, culture and wellbeing. Why is there now a focus or was there always a focus on people or is it a startup thing? And actually, this is fantastic.

Sisa Sibanda (10:14)
I'm

We'll go press.

Yeah.

This is the art app thing, probably.

P.H. (10:36)
round floor level at which to enter a startup and be able to shape culture, because you don't want it to be 250 people in and looking backwards and going, we really need to think about culture. And they're not being one or they're being a really bad one, as we've seen in many of the tech startups over the years, and the founders have just lost the plot. So

Sisa Sibanda (10:46)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think

they're so focused on building the business, they forget that actually it's a people business. It's not the product. Yeah.

P.H. (11:02)
And you mentioned about the burnout and the sprint

and the dedication and the working so long hours in order to get the boat to go, let alone go faster. So you've incorporated culture and wellbeing in people. You have had that with you, but not every founder or team, top team wants to embrace that, but I'm guessing at CAM, CAM, sorry, that they do.

Sisa Sibanda (11:08)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, I'm very fortunate in Martin. He's very progressive as a leader and very open because he's so new to being a CEO himself, two years now since doing it. But he does lead convincing from a, know, I was like, right, you know, he's very good. He loves to read those Harvard Business Reviews, McKinsey reports. So he's already alive to the fact that as a people business, it can't just be about the products. It can't just be about the funds.

can't just be about the investors, although as an investment PE fund, that's ultimately performance execution key. And so for me, I was six months in, was like, right, know, culture, there's lots of different things happening in different places, you know, because of the kind of hybrid, well, remote first, then hybrid environment, that we haven't really thought about what culture we want to have.

Definitely want to make it more modern because I want it to be about people, not human resources. It's a people business, let's call it people. Let's have an intentionality on culture going forward and then well-being being how do you make sure that when we're driving high performance, because we are so passionate and energized around the mission, that well-being is also still part of that. it's sustainable, we're sustainable with our people.

sustainable with the business and the women's system sustainability space. It kind of feels like that for me was a really good way of kind of letting people know that these things are important to us and then kind of having it as kind of call to action as leadership.

P.H. (12:59)
think it would be a

rum do to have a badged company called Climate Asset Management, who is obviously all about climate and the effect on people, to not have a decent culture and wellbeing pillar of its people management, and to have that as a priority rather than anything else. know, people first sort of attitude is like, you don't have a business without people.

Sisa Sibanda (13:14)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Exactly.

P.H. (13:26)
And

if you're burning them out, then you've kind of shot yourself in the foot, haven't you?

Sisa Sibanda (13:30)
And some of it is not even we're doing it to them. They're so hungry and so focused on the mission. They're doing it to themselves and they're high achieving and they will drive themselves to, you know, to burnout because they're just so passionate about what they're doing. And it's, mean, for me, that's been, they're so engaged here at CAM and it's lovely to see.

you know, normally it's the other way around. You're happy to say, on, this is the purpose, and you know, let's get excited. No, I mean, everyone here is very driven, and some people were just driving themselves too hard. And I remember thinking, right, we need to, as leaders, be responsible to sometimes help people to realise that it's take a break, it's okay to take a

P.H. (18:17)
So it sounds like there are a of high achieving, clever people in your organization who are dead keen, like literally ready to burn out at the drop of a hat because, I mean, that's an exaggeration, isn't it? But certainly you don't want to clip their wings, but at the same time you need them to think of themselves as the marathon, not the sprint sort of thing. How does confidence play out for your people in your organization, do you think?

Sisa Sibanda (14:28)
Yeah.

Yes.

P.H. (14:46)
I mean, gosh, you're in a world where being a big thinker, a big picture person is required because of the nature of investment and understanding the economy, the macro and micro, the levers and the pulleys and levers, I suppose. And at the moment, we've got such a difficult negative backdrop, backlash against much of the progress, which has been hard won.

Sisa Sibanda (14:49)
We can.

Mm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

P.H. (15:16)
over the

last five years even, just getting an acceptance that climate change is a thing. By the BBC, for example, the BBC until in the recent history would always feel that it had to have the opposite view on in order to provide a balanced piece on climate. So they'd have someone saying, yeah, the fires and the floods are attributed to a global warming.

Sisa Sibanda (16:22)
Yeah, yeah.

Mmm.

P.H. (16:45)
And they'd always

feel that they had to have another balanced expert on to say this could be Buncombe. But that's gone. They decided, no, actually, we're going to, we're just going to agree with everything. So it's been a hard, a hard fought for exceptions of it. And now, you know, forgive the pun, but an erosion of that. So these, your, your workforce sit in a big picture and they know it, don't they? Do you see external events? This is a really long question, by the way.

Sisa Sibanda (16:50)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it's totally fine. There's

a lot of context that you're layering there that's so complex,

P.H. (17:16)
Yeah, thanks. That's better. Yeah, right. I'm reframing

that for my mind because I'm going to say a really long question, Penny, and I send them my own confidence. Whereas actually, I'm layering context. Thanks, Cissa. So layered context, right? So the question is, does that affect them in addition to the hard work that they're doing? And do you see that? And does it affect their confidence at the moment?

Sisa Sibanda (17:22)
Hehehehehe

Yeah.

you

So we are extremely confident about our mission and the purpose and what we're doing and why it makes a difference. And it's partly as a first time fund. We're now a billion because we've been so good at our conviction around why investors should come on that journey. To be fair, we had a very, very good shareholder in HSBC helping us a lot with that and pollination as well. But particularly HSBC because their distribution network is so vast.

But when they meet, Colin, when those people were meeting the team here, and you know, should, yourself Penny, you're more than welcome to come and visit us, just the people and the, know, the calibre of the people and the experience that the people here have means we, you know, we have to be confident about that. But there is climate anxiety. I would say as a HR professional, I noticed the impact a lot on our more junior colleagues.

who I just think, gosh, they've come into a world, they're coming into the workplace with all these different dynamics going on. And it must be a confusing and very unsettling time. because so many of the people working here are passionate about the climate, it's frustrating. I've got a few, I've got three colleagues in the US who are not happy with what's going on there. But we're just, we're in it together. And I think that's where the confidence comes in, by relying on each other.

And then Martin is very good at positioning it, know, that this is, you know, there's some companies who are saying they're rowing back from certain things or pulling things up, when you dig deep, is it really, really a full rollback? Probably not. Because obviously things that involve sustainability take time. And also I think if people, at least for us at least, I know that our people want us to also be...

working in a sustainable way, thinking about impact on the environment. And I think that's that, those young generations coming through, the Gen Alphas and the Gen Zs, when they hit the workplace, they're gonna demand that from their people, i.e. their leaders and their CEOs. And I don't think they can get away from that generation being much more savvy and aware that they want the planet to be there for their own kids and their young themselves. So I just think...

It's just the next four years is an interesting time and maybe that's the problem. Governments are only in for four years at a time. They can't take long-term views on things the way companies have to.

P.H. (18:13)
What's just struck me is the idea that you might be, you may well be, you know, in another life, closing doors moment, may well have been in an HR office in one of the big petroleum companies who recently announced a complete U-turn on whether they're going to start drilling and stuff again. I'm like, yeah, do you know what? We've had a look at it and we're not doing as well as our competitors.

Sisa Sibanda (19:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes

Yes!

P.H. (20:42)
Without naming names, Cissa, do

Sisa Sibanda (23:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

P.H. (20:45)
you ever have any sort of sympathy, empathy and think, thank goodness I'm not having to deal with new talent coming through the door with a big question mark about what the heck is this? Do you, know, what am I trying to ask here? I'm just trying to have a dig at the misguided steps of other people, aren't I? just thinking how much you must be like chuffed to bits that you're in the place where you are.

Sisa Sibanda (20:53)
Bye.

I know.

Well, it's interesting you say I did work at Castle Lake which had an aviation business and that was like one of their strategies and I remember when I came here and one of the interview questions was like why do you want to work at CAM, Climatic Management and I was like wow you know I've been working and helping a business with the aviation industry and you know the interviewer laughed and I was like yeah I feel like I have to come and repent my sins.

P.H. (20:40)
Yeah.

Sisa Sibanda (20:40)
And

so yeah, I mean, I think I'm so sympathetic to different HR people in different contexts, to be fair. I mean, like there were so many stories of things where I know it's not HR, but they're probably taking the brunt of what's going on. So, you know, I think of the P &O scandal and during COVID and they just sacked everybody.

I always sympathise, so I never generally get very smug except for when I'm like, maybe politicians tripping over their own laces, that's when I might get a bit excited. Because I think it's hard, I think the HR job and being a people professional in any context or sector is really challenging because people just don't understand what we do and they don't really realise. And there's lots of memes and it's great fun joke on WhatsApp and TikTok or...

P.H. (21:15)
Yeah, yeah.

It's incredible, isn't it?

Sisa Sibanda (21:33)
Instagram and yeah, but they don't really know and a lot of the time we're in at least my experience of most HR professionals they're in it because they care.

P.H. (21:44)
Absolutely, and care for their colleagues, seniors, care for the new people, everyone. And yet they do bear the brunt of many challenging moments. if nothing else, they're witness to many things, aren't they? How do you manage your own wellbeing then? You're an advocate for wellbeing. What steps do you take to look after your own space?

Sisa Sibanda (21:57)
I love you.

Yeah.

It's a challenge. I've been very fortunate this end of 2024 I was allowed to have someone working in the team with me. I think as a standalone, was standalone for what was that? Probably nearly 18 months. And that's tough. That's really tough. Because you can't really talk to anyone. Not really. And then you talk to your friends and unless they're in HR, they don't really understand.

That was really tough. I rely very heavily on my friends and my HR network outside. I'm still very friendly with my previous boss. And she's great counsel. And I've always made an effort to keep my network going. And then...

P.H. (22:56)
When you say made an effort,

what do you do? Paint the picture of how you actually go about that. Is it just a phone call or, you know, quick zoom or something like that?

Sisa Sibanda (22:05)
Yeah, so it'll be, so if I say Yen, I'm gonna tell her now that I've through this podcast. She doesn't know I'm doing this, but, so with Yen, I could text her and I'll text her, we'll meet up for dinner or drinks.

Not all the time, you know, if there's something that happens and there was something that happened up for me last year and I text her and she texts me back by the end of the day and I was just so grateful. And I think that's because of the power of the relationship we built when I worked at Castle Lake. But I still keep in touch with my boss from Amundi. I also still keep in touch with colleagues from even my link latest days by going to the alumni events, following people on LinkedIn, know, commenting on LinkedIn.

active on LinkedIn, so I really work hard to keep my professional network going. And then I used to be part of a P network when I was at Castle Ape, but because we were a start-up, we didn't have the size of funds that they would be interested in having me continue my membership. So I do make an effort to go to any recruitment, know, speaker events or webinars online just to, yeah, keeping it alive.

P.H. (23:19)
absorbing and learning and putting it all in perspective

Sisa Sibanda (23:23)
Yeah, and helping

P.H. (23:24)
with the help of others.

Sisa Sibanda (23:25)
with new ideas because a lot of the time there's no one to brainstorm with. And then when I got the support, my lovely colleague Kate, was just someone else you can talk to but in a much more kind free way about what's going on. Because as, well, you're probably speaking to lots of people, professionals, they will tell you that sometimes you don't see the nicer side of people.

this world. you know, where do you put all that energy? I'm generally myself, rightly or wrongly, I'm an empath. So I take on a lot of that energy and it's not always good for me. So I also have every fortnight since late last year, I've been going to have massage, which I'm loving sauna and massage. And then I just come out of that every Sunday that I do that and feel like I'm walking on clouds then, you know.

P.H. (24:14)
Amazing. That's a real wood

set and that's a dedication to backing yourself, isn't it? And if you let that slide, I bet you notice it, don't you?

Sisa Sibanda (24:19)
Yeah, something self-care.

Yeah, and then we've got

On the wellbeing side, we've got this lovely lady called Attie and she's come, her company's called Surrey Hills and she came in and did a meditation, but she's also kind of a holistic therapist and part of this meditation was about the nervous system and calming the nervous system, which, so yeah, I'm thinking about, you know, getting her in, not just for work, but she's also offered just personally for me, knowing that the job's quite stressful to give me recordings and I've been listening.

today isn't that really really good really really good

P.H. (24:57)
Lovely. Yeah. So there's

a few things in your toolkit. This idea of new ideas though, the Cicisibanda stamp of doing things differently. Okay. So you put the B on, you're putting the B into D, E and I, right? I want to know what else you've got up your sleeve, either what you've implemented already or what you're going to, what big master plan have you got for when you reach, I don't know, what's the growth?

Sisa Sibanda (25:08)
We love you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

P.H. (25:27)
forecast for your workforce. You've got 50 at the moment. What are you hoping to get to?

Sisa Sibanda (25:30)
Hmm.

Well, this is the challenge, I think, being a kind of investment PE house, it's about wanting to not have too many heads against the AUM. And so I think we want to try and keep the head count number relatively low. Sorry, assets under management.

P.H. (25:53)
Forgive me, AUM.

You've really gone asset management crazy there with your acronyms. Yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm asking the dumb question on behalf of the listener there.

Sisa Sibanda (25:01)
I haven't I? I down the tunnel there, sorry. Thanks for bringing me

back. Sorry everyone. Yeah, assets and management. Yes, yes.

P.H. (25:13)
Do you want to redo that? Should we redo that question again?

So that's you looking after yourself. What plans have you got for your staff in the future to help look after them and have the great culture and the wellbeing and as well as do the work of what is HR essentially? And what sort of growth is there in mind in terms of headcount?

Sisa Sibanda (31:33)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, so we're 50 now and I think we don't want to grow too much more. The next year we're probably about five or eight people. But the long-term vision of the five-year plan is to be five billion assets under management. we've got US dollars, yeah.

P.H. (26:01)
that dollars?

Sisa Sibanda (26:04)
So we're one billion now, 50 people and yeah that's the so I think we don't want to grow too much. I've already asked Martin, I'm like do you think we'll get to a hundred and he's like no not any time soon. So I guess I don't have a straight answer to that but apart from saying that we need to keep, we want to keep lean and make sure that we're going to have to leverage things like.

P.H. (27:20)
Yeah, right. Okay.

Sisa Sibanda (27:28)
technology and AI to augment what our people are doing so that we don't have to have excessive headcount growth.

P.H. (27:35)
Okay,

so potential 10 % increase from where you are now. What else are you implementing? What would you like to have in place? It sounds like a fantastic opportunity for you actually. And I think that's what you recognize when you first came into the role, isn't it? And right, I can put, can do what I like and I can be creative.

Sisa Sibanda (27:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I can be creative and that's the energizing bit for me. That's what gives me the confidence and then to see those ideas go in, be implemented and then see good results from them. So when I first started, I knew I had to scale myself. I was a standalone person and I was like, how am going to scale myself? I suggested we have a wellbeing team and that wellbeing team being co-chaired with me and people from the business who are interested in being wellbeing champions.

we have a small team of people on, and I was particularly interested in getting people from the investment side, because that's usually where, you know, people can really kind of burn themselves out, they're high risk of burnout. But actually over time I realized this, we call it investments and core functions. So they're all the kind of business support functions that you might expect, they're called core functions at CAM. And so that was really important, having really, you know, people who put their hands up to.

help me think about wellbeing, but also for me as the HR professional, to get that feedback and that buy-in and actually have people who are supporting the agenda because they really care about it, but they can also feedback to me from their own lived experience of the challenges that we're having on this. So it didn't have to all be on me. And as a result of that, they can help with the comms and they can help us.

P.H. (28:13)
Yeah.

Sisa Sibanda (28:18)
When I have an idea, stress test it and make sure is it really going to land, is it really valuable to them, know, from their understanding, what's their view?

P.H. (28:25)
And it's that classic, it is for me, but without me, then it is not for me. You know mean? If you're just forcing things onto people, that's going to be a harder sell than if they've thought of it themselves and it can bring their lived experience to light and to input on that. So yeah, that's a nice trick actually. And you're working with what you've got, scaling yourself. What else have you done? You've got the colleagues working on the wellbeing team with you. What else is there?

Sisa Sibanda (28:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we've got the DEIB committee. So they're still active and alive and well. So diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. And so we have awareness days, which is driven very much by people internally. So if they want to recognise Chinese New Year, which we've done for the second time very recently, is because we have four or five colleagues who are Chinese internally.

P.H. (29:03)
Longing.

Sisa Sibanda (29:20)
And so we got some food in and you know, it's another way for me to show that we are not just inclusive, but those people are owning that day and what happens is it's blind. And I'll then explain a bit about their culture. You know, know about the animals on the Chinese New Year calendar. So, you know, they were doing a teach-in at our town hall and so it was lovely and we're all very curious bunch, lots of questions. So people feel really kind of seen, which is nice.

And then I've just very recently established a social, I call it, in people's speak it would be social wellbeing team, but we just call it social team for the benefit of everyone else. Because the aspect of social and belonging is connection. And for me, that's what their task to do. They might not realize it by having all these lovely events, virtual and in person. yesterday we went to...

Somerset House to see Soil, which is a fantastic exhibition if anyone wants to go to it, very much in line with our brand and messaging. couldn't do it after, a number of people went and did that. when we came out, some of us went to the pub, some of us won't be, but over the next few days we'll all be talking about it. And it's a shared experience that we've all had together and we've got all different thoughts around that and the diversity of that and the discussions that we'll be having over the next few days is going to be fabulous.

And that's connection, which again drives belonging. So that's another, that's a more recent thing. And then I think over time, I'd like to get those pillars, I like to say, working well together, and then ultimately probably form a culture committee in the years ahead as we scale on and actually try to formalize what are hopefully norms of how we do things. At the moment it's forming, but hopefully by that point it'll be like a norm and to it and then.

We are culture champions who are able to demonstrate role model and all the things I think high performing companies want their people to be able to do in five thriving contexts.

P.H. (30:24)
Yeah, yeah, it sounds amazing.

And also very context driven. So you could come in and go, right, we need a special interest group or an employee resource group or network that's just for LGBTQ plus, black and ethnic people coming in together, gender, you know, and separating it all out, which possibly makes sense when you're working with masses of people, high numbers, but at your level, the numbers

Sisa Sibanda (30:29)
Yes.

Hmm

Thank

Yep.

Yeah.

P.H. (30:52)
It doesn't require it, does it? I'm guessing.

Sisa Sibanda (30:55)
No, not that I've seen. mean the DEIB committee, there are four of them, but then they've also got their own pillars of focus and I think they've got maybe half the company volunteering to help them. But they predate me, so I'm more of an advisor if they want.

support or guidance and so I don't necessarily drive their agenda so much except for making recommendations. So that I guess in some ways is kind of your ERG, your employee resource group, because they are almost kind of that that just kind of happened organically when there was a need for that team to come to be. And I think they came to be partly because our leadership team at the time was all white and all male.

P.H. (30:39)
Okay, so final, yeah, okay, well on that point,

Sisa Sibanda (38:42)
Yes.

P.H. (30:42)
that segues rather nicely, Sissy, into a question for you about your confidence. Now, you strike me as a beautifully confident individual who knew what she wanted when she started her career and has seen the opportunities and moved, you know, regularly, not spending too little time in a place, but not spending too much time in a place to get more experience and bring more value to where you are now.

Sisa Sibanda (30:49)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mmm.

P.H. (30:09)
How has your confidence tagged along with that? Have you always been a lovely, confident person from birth? Has it been something that you've had to work on at all? What's your relationship with it like?

Sisa Sibanda (31:17)
I'm going

Well, I'm just a happy person. I think I'm a positive, naturally happy person. Our whole family is, if you were to meet us all. We all laugh loads and then when we laugh, we will cry. So it's really quite a happy family. so I've always had that. I think confidence in me has grown over time.

P.H. (31:32)
I want you to adopt me by the way then.

Sisa Sibanda (31:52)
But I know my own mind, I'm clear in my thinking about what I think about stuff and I'm very reflective, so I think that's grown over time as well from my experience and then different things that I've seen. I think my confidence also comes from having moved so much. I feel like I'm always kind of consultative as a result because I've seen so many different ways in which people management can be done well. It really makes me...

confident that there is no set way and so therefore there is no wrong way and so when I've come here I wanted to be contact specific because I didn't want to do HR to them and the team I wanted them to almost be my partner in crime you know in what was going to be useful for them so when I first joined I met with everyone individually and that was really important to me.

P.H. (32:45)
It sounds like you've found

ways to, or you would just naturally support yourself, which I, know, in my experience of working with people and talking about confidence and finding out their own relationship with it, isn't always in place. And from what you've told me about, you know, even just taking time out to have a massage every two weeks, finding allies and supporters in the wellbeing committee rather than, you know, and having your network of

Sisa Sibanda (32:55)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

P.H. (33:13)
friends, family and former colleagues to call upon, you make that a purposeful thing that you support yourself. And I'm guessing, I'm hoping that's without guilt and feeling like, I'm being selfish if I support myself. Because a lot of people go to that. Even if they are supporting themselves, I know I do. It's like a lifelong work for some people to support themselves.

Sisa Sibanda (33:17)
Wow, yeah.

Penny, you've just reflected back

Yeah, wow, I've never really, yeah, just reflected back. What you've just reflected back to me is like me just hearing it for the first time. I've never thought of it like that. I think I've had to have that networking place to progress, and I'll be honest, as a black woman, it's really tough. It's really tough. And I... Yeah.

P.H. (34:00)
especially in investment banking and the private sector

world and law. Yeah. I mean, you've picked your sexes there, sister.

Sisa Sibanda (35:03)
Or law firms, mean law firms. I mean, and I, you know, I was fortunate.

Yeah. Yeah. So I...

P.H. (35:15)
So you put that

front and centre as the kind of, am supporting myself for survival, connection, and so I can have more influence. Is that something that maybe resonates for you?

Sisa Sibanda (42:24)
Yeah,

that really resonates. that doesn't mean I haven't... So externally, I'm exuding lots of confidence, but there are times when I do... And I'll get feedback sometimes, that, you seem a bit quiet, or you don't seem like yourself. But that's because internally, it's coming out. There's nowhere for it to go. And so I do have things like imposter syndrome and things like that.

I remember in my last place at Castle Lake, had a coach and she would say to me, there's imposter syndrome, there's no such thing. And I was like, no, but there is, because I don't feel confident. And, you know, in lots of ways, I knew what she was trying to say. It was like a mindset, you know, it's kind of, you you need to...

P.H. (36:08)
I see. mean,

she wasn't saying it doesn't exist because, yeah, okay, there was 1970s researchers. Yeah.

Sisa Sibanda (36:11)
Yeah, yeah, it was like, it's like a mind-sense. Yeah, and like, I know that's what

she meant, but it obviously landed. I can tell you, was like, my inner voice is torturing me.

P.H. (36:22)
Yeah, yeah. It's a really tough thing to experience that

someone saying to you, your thoughts are just utter rubbish. know, 80 to 90 % of what you're telling yourself is made up bunkum, know, utter rubbish, pointless. It's a story. So, but to hear it, to hear that feels like you're being unsupported in your experience of the emotions that you're, you know, you're having, or the feelings that are coming up. But

Sisa Sibanda (36:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

P.H. (36:51)
Ultimately, it's quite correct, isn't it, in that we can change our thinking and change the script and the mindset. But sometimes that doesn't feel easy to do, but you have a knowledge of your own mind and you spend time to reflect and process, which makes this room space to do that. And I think that's crucial. I don't think enough HR professionals have enough space or create or make enough space for themselves.

Sisa Sibanda (37:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

P.H. (38:18)
to really look after themselves and it is such a tough job. So well done for coming on this podcast and sharing that because I think it will be really inspirational to a lot of other people to go, right, yeah, I'm booking a massage every two weeks, nothing else.

Sisa Sibanda (38:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Make time, make time to do these things because you're just as important. Your house, your body is your home. And you need, just like everything else, you need, you take care of your home. So your mind and your body and everything is just as important, like you take care of your home, your body is your home.

P.H. (44:35)
make time.

I love that. Can I steal it? I'm going to trademark it and call it my own. Your body is your home. I mean, it's everywhere I think your body is a temple. Well, okay, it's a bit different. go to church, yeah, not religious or yeah, go to a mosque, what you on about? So temple, yeah, body is your home. Yeah, it's where you live. You need it. And your mind as well, of course.

Sisa Sibanda (38:55)
Yes, please do.

Yeah, and I get to catch.

Yeah.

Yeah.

P.H. (39:19)
Thank you. I'm so excited