Redefining success for women in law and leadership – Jane Ayaduray

Jane Ayaduray (00:00)
Penny, I'm slightly nervous about answering this question because it doesn't put me in the best light. But given that we are talking about confidence, perhaps a bit of overconfidence insofar as I actually thought I was applying for a completely different job. So I was in Dubai at the time, had been there for three years and just recognized that from a location perspective, it really wasn't where I wanted to be. So had a conversation with my manager and my manager's manager.

to say, look, I really enjoy working with the bank, but Dubai is not for me. Would you be supportive of me looking for opportunities elsewhere? And they were both incredibly encouraging and supportive of that. So I was grandly applying for jobs and thought I applied for a job which was to do with sort of workplace of the future. You know, how do we use our buildings differently? How do we work differently? So all really interesting stuff. And in fact, there are some D&I links to that. But actually,

not the job that I did apply for. And it wasn't until I was looking up at the time, our global head of D&I to see her reporting line and realized not only did she not report into HR as I thought she did, because I thought I was applying for a different job, but the job description which I was being interviewed against had no bearing on the job I thought I'd actually applied for.

P.H. (01:20)
So hang on, hang on, you're in a job interview. You're facing what, three people, two people, a panel of interviewee, interviewers?

Jane Ayaduray (01:26)
Fortunately, I did find this out before I got that far. I did, I did. And huge credit to Jackie, who took somebody who had no D&I experience, was obviously slightly baffled by what does D&I do, because I really wasn't prepared for that. And...

P.H. (01:32)
Yeah, you still turned up at the job interview.

Jane Ayaduray (01:51)
helped me build a career in that, which has been a wonderful growth opportunity and something I've really enjoyed, albeit a little bit unexpectedly, given my less than planful entry into the profession.

P.H. (02:04)
This is incredible. Okay, two things are incredible. The fact that you turned up for the job interview in the first place, knowing that it wasn't quite, it wasn't at all the job in fact that you anticipated. So bravo for that. Why not have a go? And then secondly, bravo for Jackie for indoctrinating you into the cult of DE and I. And...

Jane Ayaduray (02:12)
I'm sorry.

I'm going to go.

P.H. (02:24)
What I'm impressed about and I want to know more about is what do you think she saw in you at that time that she would overlook your lack of experience in this area? I'm sure there were other qualified candidates. What was it about you and your attitude or your transferable skills perhaps that you were able to jump across into another what we'd consider silo, I suppose, or subject matter expertise?

Jane Ayaduray (02:51)
That's a great question and not something I've ever really thought of before. I was just incredibly grateful for the opportunity and I confess a little bit surprised. I think there were probably two things and one to your point about transferable skills. I think that's something that she definitely recognised. Jackie herself had come out of the business and so she, before taking on the D&I role, had never had a huge amount of contact with HR because she was a fantastic manager.

And so, you know, she was managing her teams really effectively and she knew what needed to be done. She got on and did it. Her primary contact with HR had been, you know, they would come to her and ask her if she had meant mentor an additional vacation student, for example. And that was sort of it. So I think she was looking for somebody who understood the organization in a different way to her, who had different views and insights.

and how we operated, what we did, what resonated with people. And I think that's the other piece of it as well, is those complementary skills. So Jackie and I are friends to this day. We are very different people. And it's one of the things that we've often commented on, is about how lucky we were to, I suppose in some respects, find each other. Because between the two of us, I think we created a great team. And we were really effective in being able to cover so many more bases than had we had more similar.

career backgrounds or personalities or approaches.

P.H. (04:19)
diversity in action in of itself in that case, diversity of thinking and diversity of personality.

Jane Ayaduray (04:22)
Indeed.

P.H. (04:25)
Jane, remind me how we met. I mean, I know I met in an office in London and I delivered an hour and a half session for a group of 27 women who are, you know, are being nudged into future, being future leaders, future partners at the law firm that you work at. Give me a bit more context about that program then and how we met and why.

Jane Ayaduray (04:47)
So we're currently running a sponsorship program for our senior women lawyers. They're all incredibly smart, incredibly talented. For this group, we've focused very much on locations where women are underrepresented. So we're finding that in a number of cases,

While not professionally isolated, these are people who may be the only one in the room, if you like. So it's not that they're in the room by themselves, but they may be the only woman in the room, or they're the most senior women. And in some cases, they might be the most senior women in their practice areas in their location, regardless of law firm. So there are perhaps just not many women who work in this space overall. So where we're really wanting to focus is how do we

engage and retain this key talent where they don't necessarily have a really strong infrastructure around them. There are different views on programmes for different groups and not just gender but sort of across the diversity spectrum and I think an important piece is women aren't broken we don't need to be fixed so this is not a remedial programme it's very much about...

P.H. (06:00)
You mean wearing shoulder pads and being powerful isn't going to do it? No? It's interesting actually, just to put a bit of color on what you're saying. I remember one of the delegates in the room that day, brilliant woman, super bright, the only woman in her office, the only one. She said that there's a real sort of sporty, golfy, football -y sort of culture. And she's not in the slightest bit interested in that. And I think she had a question about how do I prove myself or how do I...

Jane Ayaduray (06:06)
Exactly.

P.H. (06:29)
be more visible in an environment where I don't exactly have anything to say. So that's just to put a bit of a picture on some of the challenges that an individual unbroken woman would face. So yes, sorry I interrupted, but yeah, the women are not broken. They don't have to change their behaviors, but it is a struggle, isn't it?

Jane Ayaduray (06:42)
Yeah.

It is, and we all live in systems which are imperfect, and we all have unique and nuanced challenges, not necessarily about gender, not necessarily about race or ethnicity or sexuality or disability, but just because we're human. But what we typically find is there are some common experiences that women are facing in the workplace because of the less than perfect systems that we have.

And what we can do through these types of programs is help them navigate through those imperfect systems. And sometimes that's not internal to the workplace. It can be family or cultural expectations or just part of the human experience. It can be really uncomfortable to be the only person who has a certain experience or a certain viewpoint. And how do we provide support around that? So the program is really very much designed to help create...

you know, engagement in a community for this fantastic group that we have. And it's a year -long program, but as part of our mid -year check -in, or mid -program check -in, we had the wonderful opportunity to bring the group together in London, which was just amazing. And so we...

P.H. (07:58)
Where had they come from? What sort of countries or regions had they come from?

Jane Ayaduray (08:02)
I love this question. So we have participants from Australia, China, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Africa, the UAE.

so really it's a very global program and it's one of the things that the participants have shared that they love about it. They love feeling connected across the firm, across the network that we have. And as a global law firm, it's one of the things that attracts people to us is the global nature of the work that we do. So through this program, being able to provide people with a very real experience around that.

And in a way that's really supportive and really helps connect them with the organization, but also with each other. And so our focus through the program and certainly through the first part of the program has been around building your visibility. So a lot that we covered in the two days that we had everybody together was focused on that. So how do you create visibility internally? What are some of the key things that people can become involved with? How do you leverage key relationships with senior leaders, for example? And

One of the things that we hit on was wouldn't it be brilliant to bring somebody in, somebody really expert in, to talk about what are some of the things that you can do in a really practical way to raise your visibility, whether it be internally or externally. Look, we came across this just awesome speaker. Her name's Penny. You may have heard of her. She delivered an absolutely brilliant session on make yourself a bit famous. And I think one of the things that really resonated with us for this particular group.

P.H. (09:18)
Who was that?

Amazing.

Jane Ayaduray (09:34)
is given the nature of the situations that they're in, as I said, you know, there are sometimes offices where in fact they just aren't many women full stop, or if they are in their practice area, there may be very few in industry there anyway. So they're often in a space of going, well, actually, I don't necessarily have role models. I don't have somebody showing me how to do this or what's effective as a woman in this space. What's comfortable?

And then there's the cultural aspects for some of our colleagues about going, well, I don't want to be seen in that particular way. I don't want to be seen as pushy or aggressive or the host of other things where some people can be seen in that way and that's OK, but for them, it's not. And providing the opportunity to really help get the leverage on what's maybe not necessarily comfortable, but what feels authentic. And even if that is a little bit uncomfortable, how to sort of lean in more to that space.

P.H. (10:25)
Mm.

And what aligns with your goals as well? So what's your aspiration and how might you get more visibility, especially if you're in a small environment, a small team environment, where there's just a handful of you out in, you know, wherever, some far -flung location, like Sydney. No, I'm joking. But, you know, just a, you know, a smaller team, then you can maybe take your visibility externally and be visible to clients, perhaps, and prospects, and, you know, do the business development side of things.

Jane Ayaduray (10:33)
Absolutely.

Yeah.

P.H. (11:00)
and get involved with that much more, which is a bit of an ecosystem really, isn't it, for visibility? One question on this though, obviously the group of 27 lawyers in the room had nothing but really hard questions for me, honestly. Yes, I know. Penny, this sounds like the two sides of this argument. I'm not arguing, I'm just presenting some ideas. I felt like I was in court. No, I didn't, it was fine.

Jane Ayaduray (11:14)
Good! That's what they do!

P.H. (11:26)
But it was very rigorous, I have to say. It was really lots of good fun. There was a lot of, I would say, under, I wouldn't say under confident, because these women are confident in their expertise and their knowledge and their practice, and they know what they're doing. There was a lot of, ooh, what if I do that, but it doesn't work? What if that happens and someone says something wrong or bad, or I'm not allowed, or, and there was a lot of couched lower confidence.

Jane Ayaduray (11:27)
I'm sorry.

P.H. (11:54)
Now that is not a woman problem, I don't think, but it is certainly something that we are perhaps more willing to acknowledge. And we think of leaders as being confident or at least displaying lots of confidence. Do you think that this group are confident enough to go on and be what you'd like them to be in the system and the culture that you've got?

Jane Ayaduray (12:19)
That's a great question. You're right, I think it is a long one, but you're completely right. I think the group is imminently confident in their own abilities. Maybe it's something to do with the amount of training that they've done, the fact that they're incredibly smart, highly educated experts in their fields. And there's a lot of, I think, internal testing, if you like, your knowledge of the law, your understanding of how it can be applied.

P.H. (12:22)
It's a long one, apology.

Jane Ayaduray (12:47)
you know, for a particular client or in a particular situation, that's tested all the way along, I think, throughout the course of their careers. So it's certainly not a lack of confidence in their ability. What I see, and not specifically with this group, but I think more generally, is that lack of confidence can come up where it goes outside of themselves and where it's more about how they interface with the organization. So it's, you know, how are views or ideas perceived or...

Is their career aspiration aligned with what the organization's aspiration is for them? Is it okay to be vulnerable? So I have no issue with being a novice in certain things. It's really comfortable for me to go, I know nothing about that, but that's so interesting, I'd love to know more. There's different.

P.H. (13:34)
That's very rare in a law firm by the way Jane, you know that don't you? Everyone seems to know an answer or they say it depends generally don't they?

Jane Ayaduray (13:39)
yeah.

Yeah, I do spend a lot of time saying I'm not a lawyer, but so I think there's definitely a piece about that interaction and engagement with the organisation and there's privilege that comes with the comfort that there is a safety net and people from historically marginalised or underrepresented groups do experience the organisation differently so their views around psychological safety or you know if they demonstrate the same behaviour as somebody else will that actually be perceived in the same way.

can be quite different. And interestingly, to your point, Penny, about the impact of confidence from a career perspective, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the 2022 HBR article really about how confidence is weaponized against women. And what this...

P.H. (14:27)
Yeah, I had a question actually in a keynote that I was doing, an interactive keynote session with a group of women and one of them asked the question and she said, you're speaking to a group of women, are you weaponizing confidence against women? Something like that, it was quite a strongly worded question. And the situation was that it was a group of women, but equally I do speak to mixed groups about building confidence, not saying you haven't got any because you're a female.

Jane Ayaduray (14:56)
Yeah.

P.H. (14:57)
Not at all, not at all. But yes, absolutely. So just expand on that HBR article a little bit more for our listeners.

Jane Ayaduray (15:03)
Absolutely, and I've just I found it so fascinating and I'm quoting it everywhere because it's so interesting to me. A relatively small study, but they studied a group of senior leaders and of the women who responded, 92 % said that they felt that confidence or a lack of confidence played a significant role in their career progression. 92%, that's a lot. Only 20 % of the men even mentioned confidence.

And when they did, all of them were talking about it in relation to women. So it was like, this isn't an issue for me, but for a woman who has less confidence, she might find it an issue. So men did not see confidence as being a role in their career, as having a role in their career at all. 92 % of women did.

P.H. (15:49)
Did it shed any light on why?

Jane Ayaduray (15:51)
you're testing me here.

P.H. (15:52)
What's your feeling then on why that is the case? Why they report, why it was, you know, why that was?

Jane Ayaduray (15:57)
I don't get it.

I think it's because we hold men and women in the workplace, not to different standards, but we have different expectations. So particularly, I think, it particularly occurs when people are in a minority group. It's you're representing the whole group and therefore you must be assertive.

We'll often hear this, and this is a slight aside, but where it comes to recruitment, there might be like, well, she's not just quite ready yet because she doesn't have X. And it's like, well, hang on, how many men have we hired who don't have X? And it's not a factor. It's seen differently because often people in underrepresented groups, in this case women, not necessarily held to a higher standard, but to a different standard, or there's a different expectation.

And I think there's also perhaps a piece where we feed into that. So the fact that we don't feel confident in something would hold us back. Whereas, you know, certainly from the men who responded to the survey, it would seem that that didn't hold them back if they didn't feel confident, because to them, feeling confident wasn't an element in their success.

P.H. (16:44)
yes, undoubtedly we all do.

as being a dominant culture, a visible dominant culture as well. It's like, it's the benchmark standard, this is how we are, we're here, and everyone else has to fit in sort of thing. And there's an excellent book called The Authority Gap, which you'll love, Jane, it's quite a new one this year. It's by The Authority Gap, yeah. It talks about why we don't take women seriously, or as seriously.

Jane Ayaduray (17:03)
Mmm.

writing that down.

P.H. (17:25)
as men and the expectations. There's lots of stories and lots of research to evidence that we all just assume that women aren't going to be as bright as their male counterparts. We just assume it and therefore we are, we scrutinise women's qualifications, expertise more heavily. We anticipate that they won't know as much. I mean, it's just horrendous. I mean, if you ever get a kind of female newsreader on, it might be that you go, what's she got on? Rather than...

Jane Ayaduray (17:38)
Mm -hmm.

P.H. (17:54)
she knows exactly what she's doing. So there's lots of rather depressing information in that book, but it will go on, I hope, at one point to say, what can we do about it? I'm only halfway through. But that's interesting, isn't it? Because we expect our leaders, the people at the top, to be confident and clear. And we need them to be, because that's decision -making, and it helps us follow them.

Jane Ayaduray (17:55)
what she's going to say, yeah.

What?

P.H. (18:18)
When people are displaying it, it's very hard to understand their inner workings. If they're feeling it, apparently, according to McKinsey, 75 % of female executives have experienced imposter syndrome. Now that's fine. We all have probably at some point, but to be able to share it with others and tell other people, yes, I experienced that and now I don't, or yes, I do, or sometimes I do, it's a vulnerability aspect, isn't it?

Jane Ayaduray (18:24)
Hmm.

P.H. (18:48)
which women are brilliant at if we perhaps overdo it a little bit and go, I'm not sure, and we really are sure. Maybe.

Jane Ayaduray (18:50)
Hmm.

You know, and I think it's one of those things that, and not to break your podcast, but I do wonder if the concept around confidence and confidence in the workplace is overrated because it's not necessary to do with people's, yeah, thanks, bye.

P.H. (19:07)
Thanks very much for the interview, Jane. Goodbye. Overrated. okay, tell me more about that.

Jane Ayaduray (19:14)
where it's not tied to somebody's actual ability to do the job or their ability to make good decisions or their ability to lead or their ability to be compassionate or their ability to show good judgment or their ability to effectively manage risk. Why?

they might be a great singer. It feels like it could have the same impact on their career. And so this whole idea that somebody needs to be displaying confidence in a certain way, particularly knowing that that might show up differently across culture or across gender or across ethnicity, I think it really makes me question about what do we mean by confidence in terms of they're great because they're competent.

P.H. (19:56)
yes. I mean, it's just really what I was referring to is that the expectation of a leader is that they display lots of confidence, which is a bit of a cul -de -sac to get into really, because then everyone turning up in leadership has to be a sort of cookie cutter version of a confident leader. The work that I do is very much about, well, do you feel confident? Does it match up? Because what I recognize is in the shortfall between...

Jane Ayaduray (20:04)
Yeah.

Mm.

P.H. (20:23)
displaying confidence, which is what is often required, and feeling it, there's a potential for stress, anxiety, burnout, and the wellbeing piece about if you can feel, not confident so you can display it, but feel assured. So maybe then you don't have to display confidence. And I think that's the key to this, is that because we see this cookie cutter,

displaying this leader who just can talk anything and they're brilliant and everyone listens. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're able to be vulnerable or quiet. And so there is this kind of confidence -ometer that we perhaps need to find our way with and speak about it more with each other, because it ranges in and out and it can be really useful to an organization when there's more vulnerability.

which is talking about confidence, which is maybe a gateway to talking about low self -esteem, lack of self -belief, imposter syndrome, stress, burnout, anxiety, low mood, you know, all the stuff that people are off work with at the moment as well, and challenge. So that's my sort of take on it. But yeah, to think that we have to be this way is wrong, isn't it? And it's not useful.

Jane Ayaduray (21:39)
Absolutely. And I had the opportunity just yesterday to speak with one of the cohorts from the programme that we were talking about earlier. And it was so interesting to me to hear how they're challenging themselves to do things differently or to lean into spaces where they're less comfortable to build with the relationships that they want or to have the impact that they want.

And in some cases, there's definitely a lack of confidence in that, like that they feel uncertain, they feel anxious, they feel nervous, but they're doing it. So there's real bravery and real courage as well. And I was like, you know, honestly, I take bravery and courage over confidence when it comes down to it.

P.H. (22:14)
Definitely talking about your values, thinking about what fulfills you is your kind of superpower to doing whatever you need to do, I think, and something that I work with people on. In fact, have you ever considered your own personal values?

Jane Ayaduray (22:32)
I have, I do, I think about them a lot. I think partly because of the work that I do, I think it is a very values driven space. And so it's something where a feeling is an alignment, both from an organisational perspective. So that's why something I look at when I'm joining an organisation or considering joining an organisation is what are their values, but not just what they put on paper, but how they actually play out.

P.H. (22:34)
Great, tell me more.

Jane Ayaduray (22:59)
So I typically ask interviewers, maybe I shouldn't say this because I'm giving my secret away, but how they've experienced the organization's values and what they see in real terms. What does it look like in practical terms? So understanding at an organizational perspective what matters and what people care about is important to me. But also from a personal perspective, and I think one of the reasons why I enjoy the D&I space so much is for me,

You know, fairness and justice are really important concepts. So, you know, working in a space which helps organisations and cultures and societies get closer to that on a day -to -day basis really matters and it's something which I feel really passionate about. And so being able to work in a space where that's actually at the heart of what I do, I think is a real gift.

P.H. (23:50)
The work that you do is very, very much bound in with culture, company culture. How do you create systems that support good culture? And how, I mean, what do you make of all that? The language around culture and how we describe it and how we influence it and, you know, whatever. Just tell me about what your approach has been and anything that you've done that's worked really well.

Jane Ayaduray (23:56)
Yes.

I think it looks different in different organisations and I'm not just saying that because different organisations have different cultures. I think the way that we approach culture in organisations is quite different. So some are quite focused on what is the culture, how do we articulate it, how is it demonstrated in things like our values and our brand and how we position ourselves. And others are just like, well, it's just what it's like to be here. This is how we make decisions and what we believe and it's not really discussed or articulated.

in any sort of significant ways. One of the pieces of work that I did actually back when I was at Standard Chartered, so a few years ago now, was looked at the firm's, the bank's values and articulated each of them through a D&I lens. So what does this mean in a D&I context? And I thought that was really interesting to help people see.

and navigate through some of what can be quite tricky conversations. So Standard Chartered certainly at the time and still today I think has a really quite significant presence in Africa. So some of the discussions we were having around things like LGBTQ plus inclusion were challenging and being able to help people see it through the lens of the firm's values of things that they genuinely believed in and felt committed to I think was a real mark of

our culture of being able to say, look, we live the values and the values matter. And one of the things I found very interesting when I was there is actually part of everybody's performance appraisal was, you know, quite specific articulation of how they were living the values. So that being able to talk about it, being able to make it concrete is a really interesting step. And I found both from a D&I perspective, but I think more broadly in terms of what's the ecosystem.

that things like D&I sit within, being able to actually make it concrete, make it tangible in terms of the work that we do or being able to, you know, how does this play out for our clients or what does it look like when we demonstrate X with our colleagues? You know, what's the experience that we want people to have?

P.H. (26:23)
And how do you ensure that those conversations are happening and that they've got good learning outcomes from them and that it's being kept alive? Values and the issue of DE and I is part of it in the culture. How do you get a grip on that? If you do, if you can.

Jane Ayaduray (26:41)
Look, it's a great question and I don't think it sits with any one person, which can sometimes be the challenge of it. It's not something that somebody can wave their magic wand from a leadership perspective and then ta -da, it all happens. I think these conversations often feel like they are the responsibility of HR or D&I and some organisations have a team which is specifically focused on culture. To my mind, it's the work of leadership.

P.H. (26:47)
Yeah.

Jane Ayaduray (27:11)
It's the work of everybody who has a responsibility over the outcomes of the organization, over the experience of their team members to be driving this. In recent years, I've moved away from the concept of inclusive leadership for myself to leadership. Because to my mind, being an effective leader means you need to be inclusive. So it's, you know, how do we frame these things? How do we help people think about...

what's their role as a leader within our organization, whether they are the CEO or somebody who just has influence. And what does that mean and how does it impact on the wider organization?

P.H. (27:52)
What advice have you got for anyone who is looking to positively influence their culture at leadership level to try and get the leaders, the real senior leaders on board to convince them that things need to change or improve or be done differently or, you know, just because there's so many organizations out there with frustrated people within them who aren't able to move the dial on D and I.

on good culture, good behaviour, because of a stuck team at the top who don't see it as being important. Have you got anything in your experience of having an influence there?

Jane Ayaduray (28:33)
One of the things I've seen as being incredibly impactful is it goes back to making it tangible for people, I think. So.

There's great research out there. There's phenomenal research around all of the topics and things that we talk about and why they matter and how they impact people, et cetera. I don't think anything speaks as loudly as the experiences of our own people. So actually having the opportunity to hear from people, whether that's live in person or anonymously, and really understand the experiences that people are having, I think can be a game changer.

A lot of our leaders, regardless of which organisation, which industry, we're in the world, are genuinely good people. They're often genuinely very busy people who have multiple demands on their time and who often aren't rewarded for what might be seen as the softer side of business. But they care, they genuinely care. And I think there's a real benefit of being able to tap into that care. And it may not be that they themselves personally then pick up the mantle.

But I've absolutely seen that happen. I've seen a CEO on stage whip out his credit card when being told that there was something that an employee group really wanted to do, but they didn't have the budget. I've heard stories of CEOs who have gone, well, that's a bit silly, and just completely changed their policy because it was in their gift to do so. Now, the drama that probably created with all of the things that sat behind the policy and all the systems and the mechanisms doesn't bear thinking about.

But I do sometimes think that leaders underestimate the power that they have, possibly because of their own lack of confidence in a particular area. But they have the ability to really influence organizations and influence the conversations and the discussions and the culture around, you know, what do we see as good? What do we see as acceptable? What does it take to be successful here? So I think that that's for me, really hearing from people, really understanding not the experience of

generic group but the experience of Penny, the experience of Rafe, the experience of...

Sally, whoever those people might be, just really understanding what their worlds look like and how they're experiencing the organisation can be hugely impactful.

P.H. (30:38)
Mm.

So qualitative research as opposed to quantitative numbers and presenting that. Doing the verbatim presentation of ideas and experiences as well as the numbers.

Jane Ayaduray (30:57)
Yes, but as you've said that, I suddenly had a slight panic because I really value data, particularly in the D&I space, because I think leaders do hear individual stories and it is hugely impactful. When you're looking across an organization, the risk with a single story is it becomes the story. And sometimes it's actually valid for multiple people and therefore it's really important that we take that on board and address that systemically.

P.H. (31:01)
But you left the kettle on. No.

Jane Ayaduray (31:25)
Sometimes it is just one person's story. And whether that's a great story and everything's fine, or whether it's throwing up or showing up a particular issue or problem, that's really important that that's addressed. But it may not be something that requires systemic change. And this is where I think data is really important, because it shows, to a certain extent, multiple people's stories in a way that is easy -ish for us to track and measure.

So I think in terms of getting leaders to recognise the need, it's often a two pronged approach. A lot of our leaders, regardless of industry, regardless of location, they're very data driven. They want to see the numbers, how does it impact on the business? So being able to show them facts, but facts internally to the organisation, I think is really helpful. Being able to then put some heart around that. And somebody once said that stories are data with heart.

Being able to put that heart into the conversation, actually hearing from somebody who did have that experience, really recognising that that happens here. It doesn't just happen in companies like ours. No, that happens here. It's a real wake -up call for a lot of people and really helpful in helping them recognising the need to do something differently or to continue the charge or to bring their leadership, weight and credibility to a conversation. So having both matters.

P.H. (32:51)
Jane, you sound like a very reasonable, level -headed, super -intelligent individual, and I would trust everything you say. When have you had to really push back or lean on your confidence or your values in order to help press a point or change someone's mind when you've looked at fairness and justice and gone, actually, we can't do this, we've got to change it, and then you have? Have you got that moment of triumph?

Jane Ayaduray (32:54)
Thank you.

P.H. (33:19)
where you've thought, right, I've just got to keep on pushing back.

Which is polite modern words for have an argument with, isn't it?

Jane Ayaduray (33:26)
Yeah.

I'd love to say yes. I don't think it's been perhaps as strong as might be implied from the question. So I've not really had any stand up knockout fights with anybody in the workplace. No, I think one of the gifts, particularly in the D&I space, is we have incredible champions and often incredible champions at leadership.

P.H. (33:38)
You haven't been toe to toe with anyone.

Jane Ayaduray (33:49)
So certainly in one of my previous organisations, we were doing some work, which I'm super proud of, around flexibility and what does flexibility in the workplace mean. Now this is all pre -pandemic, so very, very set ideas of you must be at your desk between these times and that's what it takes to be successful and that's what it takes to work here. We had some fantastic championship of just people going, well, that's not how I run my team, that's not what I want to do in my team.

And I think we need to have this conversation more than the organization. So it was a slow start, but having people behind it at a leadership level who would have those leadership conversations. Because much as I want everybody to think I'm reasonable and they should listen to me and trust me completely, sometimes other people have better access or it comes better from them because they're not part of the D&I structure or because it's more unexpected to come from them than it is to come from me. So...

They have a different way of impacting and influencing than I do. And being able to leverage them, I think, in conversations like flexibility. I mean, of course, I'm going to say all the things that people think I'm going to say about it. But where it comes from a senior leader who's running an incredibly successful global division, it lands differently. And then being able to, for them to then have the conversation with the CEO who's gone, yeah, that's a really good idea. We should do more of that. And helping to drive that conversation forward, I think, is hugely beneficial.

So it is, I think, I suppose, a case of choosing your battles and picking the people who will advocate and help champion as well.

P.H. (35:25)
D, E, and I through stealth, through the back door. Nice. Yeah, I like that approach. Yeah, that's a superpower there, Jane, I have to say. It's been brilliant talking to you. I just want to wrap up with one last question about what's next. You've been taking on this cohort of the future women leaders and your global law firm, and you're banging into that. What else is on the cards for Jane in the...

Jane Ayaduray (35:27)
Always my goal.

P.H. (35:52)
in the space that you occupy right now.

Jane Ayaduray (35:55)
of the things I'm loving is learning more about AI and how it's impacting the world and the workforce and D&I. So while it's not a specific work project, it's something which I just, I think is fascinating. And I'm loving learning about it. I'm loving exploring how it can be

P.H. (36:16)
Can you give me a flavour of that? Because I can't quite match those two ideas up. Humans, D and I, AI. Don't really... Can you just give me a flavour of how that... What have you got in mind when you talk about that?

Jane Ayaduray (36:23)
Yeah.

So I was on a call a couple of weeks ago where a company has developed an AI coach and therefore people can interact with this coach which is powered by AI, it's not a live person, but they can have a conversation with the individual in inverted commas and talk about the issues and challenges that they're facing and feel that they're getting...

assistance and support which is very much targeted and tailored to them. So it's not necessarily...

the one -to -one interaction they would have had had they been able to access a coach in real life in person. But they're getting similar inputs and support and it's available to everybody across a whole organisation, whereas a coach may be only available to 10 % of people. So the ability for people to access that, hearing some great stories about getting career advice and career support in schools and universities across the US through AI.

Again, that's sometimes quite limited to people. They may not have the ready access. And you absolutely hear stories about people who in the US parlance went to their guidance counsellor but was told that there was definitely something that they could or couldn't do or that there was a certain track that was or wasn't available to them. So very much shaped by their career counsellor's own experience and bias.

P.H. (37:45)
Yeah.

Jane Ayaduray (37:54)
And so being able to, one, make support more readily available to more people, but also the opportunity to potentially strip out some of that bias and individual experience and give people different opportunities because of that.