Public sector recruitment, a passion for shaping talent in Greater Manchester – Anna Foster-Ressel

Anna Foster-Ressel   (00:00)
So like most people, because my kind of career path has been in recruitment, talent acquisition for a long time, I fell into it. And I'm sure you've heard that many times, Penny. People just fall into recruitment. My background, so my academic background is actually in outdoor activities management, believe it or not. So I spent two years. There is a degree in it. Yeah, a great degree. know. Yeah. So I spent five years in total college and university studying.

P.H. (00:18)
There's a degree in that. Whoa.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (00:26)
how to basically manage outdoor activity centres. And then I finished uni, didn't have any money, came home, found myself a call centre role selling life insurance or whatever it was, and then came out of that into recruitment because it's still sales related. And I found that I actually had some great people skills and sales skills in that. And I did really well in recruitment and I've stuck to it ever since and then moved from being private sector, kind of outwardly focused to internal.

for the public sector, so it's been quite a journey.

P.H. (00:57)
And what was that move like then, going from that commercial environment to a public servant environment?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (01:00)
Mm.

Yeah, it was challenging. think there's a few things. know this podcast kind of looks at confidence as well, but at the time I took a risk, so I went from a permanent role and I took a risk to move internally because that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to work as an internal recruiter. Didn't necessarily mean or matter what type of industry I was working for at the time. So local authority, public, private, but I knew that I wanted to come to an internal role.

So I moved into a 12 month fixed term contract at the time and then was made permanent and I've been able to progress my career within that. But the main change was the culture change, how long it takes to move things forwards, the bureaucracy that is in place, for the right reasons of course, and I think that the public sector is very good at making sure that...

things are in place for the right reasons. And for example, we've got a really heavy focus on equality impact assessments, for example, and we'll make sure that rigor is done for the benefit of the people receiving that service. Whereas I think that sometimes, you know, the private sector can be very quick to make decisions and move forward sometimes, you know, a detriment, but on the flip side, it does take a long time to get things moving and change implemented, which can cause, you know, challenges along the way.

P.H. (02:21)
your own personal metronome must have had to have a bit of a change as well, going from sales, transactional, right, job done, let's move on to the next thing, next thing, next thing, to going to slow project -based things that actually do take a long time because of the nature of the culture.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (02:28)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think over time I've kind of had to get used to that, but I am still quite driven in that way. So my approach to work is job, you know, let's get things done. And I do find, you know, I suppose to my detriment that I probably take on quite a lot. And then, and then it's being able to finish, you know, those projects and move them forwards. But it's just in my nature to, to, to kind of drive forward change and, be as, yeah, it's efficient, the right word, but you know, it's yeah, yeah, effective, efficient.

P.H. (03:06)
Effective, efficient, impactful. Combination of all of those things.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (03:09)
Yeah, yeah, just yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I think it's, it's, you know, being drilled into me from an early career that, you know, the way that you work is, to be, to be like that. And I've been able to hopefully, you know, to have that positive impact on the organisations that I work for, to bring in that edge. I think that maybe some people may not have had the opportunity to develop because they potentially haven't been in the private sector.

P.H. (03:35)
So let's talk about the how then. So recruiting, attracting, retaining, developing talent, all of the above. What are you working on at the moment in terms of talent management?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (03:42)

Yeah, so we've got a lot of plates spinning in that arena and talent management is such a subject, it, I think, in the people agenda and we look at it from different lenses. So if you look at Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service, a part of our organisation is the fire service. We have a long -term workforce planning strategy to recruit more firefighters into roles.

the organisation I think since 2017 has recruited 750 nearly new firefighters. So it's been quite a journey and along the way we've implemented a attraction strategy. With that because we recognise that as a fire service we're not as reflective and diverse as our communities that we serve. So as part of that opportunity to recruit more firefighters, we kind of switched on and accelerated how do we attract.

and more people that aren't representative and that includes women and people from racially diverse communities and LGBTQI and community groups as well. So yeah, and we've done a lot in that space. So I suppose from an attraction perspective, when you're looking at talent management as a whole, we've got that, that's ongoing. Next two years, we've got another 250, I think roles to recruit for.

P.H. (05:08)
And how do you, what does that look like attracting people to the fire service? Is it posters? Is it outreach? Give me some flesh on the bones there, Anna.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (05:11)

Yeah, so mainly outreach. So what we've done, so our strategies as they have evolved have been quite organic in a way. So lots of things have influenced, but I'll give you some examples. So we have now a team and I've established an outreach team and that's led by a firefighter attraction lead called Jane Jeffery, who's amazing. Do you need to give Jane a good mention?

Now what Jane's team will do is they'll go out to community groups, sports clubs, to various community events and promote the role of a firefighter. We also look at grassroots levels too, because we really recognise that actually people, young people that are in school thinking about their future careers may not always see a firefighting role as their first point of choice because...

of just mainstream media and the way that a firefighter's being painted. you know, and I was thinking about, exactly, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

P.H. (06:07)
fireman Sam, I mean that's it isn't it? You've got white bloke working in firefighting.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (06:12)
know, fireman salmon and the like. yeah, so being able to build those kind of early signs and support for young people to understand, yes, actually, this is a career that I could follow and here are the steps that I need to take to be able to do that. Our team, our attraction team are representative of the communities that we're looking to attract as well, which really helps, you know, you've got to see it to be it, as we always say. So being able to go out there and talk about their own journeys.

being a female, a mother, for example, and being in the service and being able to overcome particular challenges that people may think they have in reaching those opportunities.

P.H. (06:48)
And I'm sure to educate people on the range of roles that are available. It's not just going up a ladder and putting a fire out, is it? There's technology, there's management, there's, I don't know, vehicle maintenance. I don't know, just what else is there? You tell me, you educate me.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (06:53)
Exactly.

Yeah, So our firefighters, alongside the operational side of work, they do a lot of community interventions. So that's protection, prevention. We have teams that go out there and, for example, would order and inspect properties and businesses that they're complying. And then on the flip side, we also have

great teams that are out there doing work with communities to say, is how to protect your house, here is how to test a smoke alarm. We've got a site up at Berry, which is a educational training site where schools visit and it's got a street that looks like an actual street. Yeah, yeah, that's it.

P.H. (07:39)
There's one near us. It's brilliant. Yeah. One of my girls said that it's one of the best day school trips she ever had. Yeah. It looks fantastic.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (07:47)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, so all of those things, you know, make the fire service. And I think it's not just that, yeah, like you say, climbing up a ladder and putting out a fire. It's, it's actually everything else around that and it is a community service. So that's, that's really important for us to, to recruit people with the right values and behaviors first over skills and experience. And that's something else that we've changed as part of our attraction strategy is to, is to change the way that we recruit and how we identify.

what good looks like. So really stripping it back to say, what are your core values? What are your core behaviours? Do you fit with what we're looking for? And if so, we can teach you the rest. We can train you with the rest of what you need to know. So that's really supported us to become more inclusive in our approach, not only to attraction, but also to how we recruit people.

P.H. (08:18)
Yeah.

Quite a sea change, fighting years of stereotypes about cats in trees and fireman's lifts and things like that. I mean, maybe it's just my brain that's just locked into that culture of seeing that on TV perhaps and that being the only model. But actually it's a very helping, nurturing, serving role, which possibly doesn't fit the macho, tough guy stereotype, does it?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (08:41)

Absolutely. I think one key thing to remember, especially when recruiting and developing the teams, is that a diverse team is always the best team, isn't it, Penny? And you'll know that from years of the work that you do. And I think it's being able to make sure that we've got the right representation of everybody in that team. yeah, we will need, know, every firefighter needs to have a certain level of fitness, of course, because of the role that's required. But also those people skills are absolutely integral.

and the ability to work with people and have that kind of public purpose is really key as well.

P.H. (09:34)
So that's the fire and rescue service, very much a service. You've had great success with that, So how do you measure that success? How do you evaluate it? Is it literally how many bums on seats you can get through and?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (09:37)

Yeah. Bombs on fire engines. But yeah, so of course making sure that we do reach our establishment requirements. But the main thing is for us candidate experience, are we working and serving the bigger purpose of Greater Manchester Strategy too? So adding that social value back in and one thing that we do as part of our recruitment.

Journey is supporting candidates with their functional skills, so maths and English, as well as employability skills. So if you want to work for us, we will provide you with some more information about our opportunities, but also signpost you to The Growth Company. He's one of our partner organisations who will then be able to give you those maths and English skills, as well as additional employability support. So if you don't find yourself becoming employed by the fire service, hopefully you'll have more skills that you can then...

give back out to the Greater Manchester City region.

P.H. (10:42)
amazing. That is quite a different take on you know social progress isn't it that maybe employers might think about adopting in the private sector. I'll spread the word.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (10:48)
Mm

Yeah, Yes, it'd be great, know, especially in Greater Manchester, you know, the more we can do to help people to become employed and of course help the economy, you know, it helps the bigger system. And that's what we're all about really is seeing that bigger picture and how can we influence that from a talent attraction perspective too. And then another measure of course for us is diversity as well. So how diverse is our organisation and is that diversity increasing? And it is.

slowly and you know I have to say we've got a lot more work to do and we're going to be implementing our next strategy next year but what we are doing is having an impact and you know we kind of keep learning from our successes and developing and creating as we go along.

P.H. (11:34)
Okay, so that's the Fire and Rescue Service. The other work you're doing, I know, is working on a talent management strategy. Who is that for? What does that look like? Because that's big broad topic as well, isn't it?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (11:41)

It is, yeah. So that is for the GMCA and employment organization. So it's for everybody that works with the command authority, 2 ,100 of us. And really what we're looking at there is how do we, again, attract, develop and then retain our talent. And it's a challenge, because at the moment, I'm in early design phases and we'll be going out to consult in the next couple of months with our organization.

We've got a very ambitious organization and when we recruit, we've recruited very, very good people. know, what we do drives strategic change across the patch. So the people that recruit are really, you know, I suppose impactful and talented in that arena. But we also find that a lot of people are hungry for the next development opportunity. You know, and we've recently closed our appraisal process this summer.

And we know that 25 % of people in the organisation want a promotion at some point. So how do we manage that expectation? know, supply and demand, I think I'd said to you earlier, and it's that ability to be able to, yeah, provide people with expectations alongside that opportunity to develop and whatever that looks like again. And if that does mean that we're supporting people to develop the skills that will be right for the...

the Greater Manchester collaborations, not just working for us, but also working across the public sector more generally and things that we're opening up now, circumvents for example, looking at joining with the civil service a little bit more and what we can do because we've got a lot of the civil service coming up to Manchester. So they're all kind of early interventions that we're making, but we do know that we've got a bigger challenge ahead in terms of what do those...

But does that people strategy look like to be able to meet that supply and demand challenge?

P.H. (13:38)
Those are big challenges, aren't they? It's not just a case of we need some bodies in the building or working from home. There's a lot to go at. How are you pushing this boulder up the hill? What's your day -to -day activity that's progressing this? You're saying you're putting it out to consultation, you're getting ideas from all over the place and being creative and innovating yourself.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (13:45)
Yeah.

P.H. (14:04)
But how are you actually going about this?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (14:07)
Yeah, so we've got some really good practice that happens already. And I think in terms of developing this longer term strategy, is longer term, it's a future plan, but also it's about knitting it all together. Some examples of great work that we're already doing, we've got an ongoing management development programme. We have, and over the past four years, it's evolved from being a graduate training programme to a management training programme. And the reason for that is because we've removed the...

the barrier that is becoming a graduate and needing a degree because we recognise that not everybody has that equal opportunity to get that opportunity to get that study.

P.H. (14:43)
Yeah, and the figures recently about people going to university are quite stark. Outside of London and the Southeast, there's big, you know, lower number of people actually getting degrees and, you know, fair play. You're the first of our family not to go to university.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (14:55)
Yeah. Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, I know, that's the shift changes, isn't But also, you know, again, kind of going back to greater Manchester population, how many people, you know, are currently unemployed that don't have a degree? There's, you know, there's a lot. we know that for us to become more inclusive as an employer and become more representative of the communities that we're trying to, you know, support and improve, we need to make those changes. moving from requiring, you know, requiring a

degree to not, but also on top of that what we've done is completely flipped out the way that we recruit. So we, for the first time, developed values based only questions. So we're looking at how people's behaviours, values align to our own. Asking questions like, why do you want to work for Greater Manchester Compound Authority? Why is Greater Manchester important to you, for example? So really driving that, what's inherent in them. Because again, similar to the fire service.

We can teach everything else. We can develop people in management. can show you the ropes in terms of those particular specialisms that you might go into. But really what's important to us is that you're the right person and that you have the right behaviors to be able to operate effectively.

P.H. (16:12)
What sorts What sorts of answers do you get to that question? Why is Greater Manchester important to you? What have you seen from people?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (16:13)
I think.

Yeah, yeah, we get all sorts, you know, and we also get a lot of people that have relocated to Greater Manchester, that aren't from Greater Manchester, you know, and actually have moved there, whether it's due to study or, you know, personal reasons. And we find that people are passionate about that, the area. And, you know, the answer is that we...

And, you know, of course, one is that people are in love with Greater Manchester and want to change it for the better. I'm giving it away now, aren't I? But yeah, I think it's one of those, the key thing, key ingredient for us is that passion and want to change. And in particular, because we're a public organisation, public sector, you know, we can't compete against salaries, for example, with the private sector. There's certain, you know, roles that we do find that are hard to fill.

So for us it's making sure that person's the right fit and actually for the longer term, why do they want to work in the public sector? Is it to, know, because they have a passion for the people and their communities and they want to see, you know, that evolution and economic change within their communities and if so, great, you know, join the family and we'll teach you the rest.

P.H. (17:25)
It's an interesting point you make about not being able to compete on salaries. So competing on values and purpose and being somewhere to belong to. Do you see that as an emerging trend in recruitment and retention that perhaps will give you the edge?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (17:29)

Yeah, think so. It's definitely an emerging trend, I think, across, regardless of private or public sector, you're looking at. It is a trend to give us the edge. Yes, to a degree, I think, as a combined authority, we have a very good reputation across the public sector. So if people are naturally interested in the public sector, look at the combined authority and know of the work probably that we're doing and the great reputation that we've built.

If you don't, you know, a bit like what I was, you know, 10 or years ago, moving from private to public, that's the bit of work that we've got to do, you know, to be able to get that message out there and say, here is what we have to offer. And not just, you know, salaries aside, what other great benefits do we have? So yes, we're looking to recruit the right people, the right purposes, but also how do we retain them? How do we give the 25 % of people that want a promotion, you know, the development opportunities and everything else with...

the restrictions that we have within the sector as well and in particular purse rings and you know we don't have as much money as maybe a private sector organisation may have to invest in that training and development so it's being able to think creatively within that space as a people function and how do we do that on a limited budget.

P.H. (19:04)
it help your organization having such a visible leader at the top? mean Andy Burnham, Does it help the fact that he's got a great presence and is a great communicator with people understanding what you do and who, you know, that you're on the map basically?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (19:15)

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, kind of driving that change, the devolution agenda and everything else that's come into Greater Manchester and Andy has been, you know, at the forefront of and that does really help us with our employer brand. But also on the flip side, you know, some people don't see that as a positive in terms of the kind of, you know, political leadership. So it's about how do we sell our other benefits and what else we have available.

We are an independent employing organisation, so we are independent of that as well. So actually what are the benefits that we bring? We've got our new Chief Exec, Caroline Simpson, who's come from Stockport, who's amazing she's already driving a lot of change and seeing that passion come through. And I think there's a lot more that we will be able to do in the next 12 months to really show that.

and drive that change across Greater Manchester and show how much of a positive, inclusive and progressive employer we are in the public sector.

P.H. (20:22)
Okay, you sound like a very grounded, reasonable, confident, self -assured person who knows what she's doing. That's my impression of you, Anna. Is that something you feel?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (20:33)
Okay, thank you. Depends on the day to be honest Penny. I think, you know, it's like anything, isn't it? Having confidence, I think you have to grow and you have to learn from and you know, kind of peel back that onion and look what's under the surface.

P.H. (20:48)
How do you do that, by the way? Just saying, I mean, that's a great concept, but have you done anything to do that? You that you do that with a daily or weekly, monthly basis. How do you keep on top of yourself, basically, in terms of self -awareness?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (20:54)
Yeah.

I, yeah, I've constantly got this need. I think, again, it comes back to that conversation we had earlier about my drive for getting things done and moving forward. I've constantly got a need to be better. And I think that's probably a blessing and a curse at the same time. So for me, is, I get regular feedback. I am constantly asking people, how did I do? I'm very self -critical. I don't take things,

for granted I suppose, also when people do give me feedback, I will never take that personally. It is for my own growth and my own mindset to actually become better. Yeah.

P.H. (21:35)
is confident in of itself though, isn't it? To be able to be vulnerable enough to say, what do you reckon? Was it all right? Could I do better and how? And then to say, okay, well thanks, I'll think about that. I used to take feedback so personally, It was just like, I would be frightened to ask for it. So I think that's a fundamentally confident move, I have to say.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (21:45)
Yeah. And I think, because I was reflecting on this yesterday before today's call and my, I suppose, nurturing in that outdoor activities world, I have had to be confident from, you know, being in college, for example, and leading groups of, young people to, you know, whether that's climbing up a wall or going out and mountaineering, that confidence, I think, has had to be there. So I do think...

It's nurtured and I think nurtured for me, because I was in a privileged position to be nurtured from quite a young age in terms of that confidence. But there are times, I'll go into a meeting, for example a board meeting and maybe I'm not feeling it, maybe I'm not prepared enough, maybe it's the feeling in the room, but then I'm not confident. And I'll find myself not speaking up when I should speak up. I'll walk out of that meeting thinking, I could have really done better there too.

to be more impactful, be more powerful. And it's some recent feedback that I've had as well about being more assertive in meetings and actually how do I get my points across? So it does depend, I think on the environment, doesn't it? It depends on the support that you've got.

And it's that the influences and the impact that people have, you know, and the environments that they're in, that then create that self of, you know, sense of loss of confidence. So I think it's about, you know, people service in particular and your role in your organisation Penny of helping people to peel back the onion a bit more and, you know, pick that and build that confidence back up. Because everybody does start with that nub of confidence. So what happens to us too?

P.H. (23:27)
Mm.

Yeah, there are a lot of confidence thieves knocking about aren't there through our lives and moments as well where we become more self -critical as a result like the board meeting not speaking up that sort of thing and it sounds like you've got that ability to reflect that often leaders, managers, team members don't have. Do you encourage that in your colleagues as well and how do you do that?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (23:39)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I think, you know, I manage a team and for me it's being able to give active and, timely feedback, but also unfortunately for them, push people into the spaces where they might feel like they're being brought out of their comfort zone because again, that's the space where you learn and you grow from the most. So of course I'll, have conversation with people and say, think this would be really good for you because of this reason. And, let's do it and I'm here for you and supporting you.

but I think you've sometimes just got to, you know, do it and lean into it, haven't you, to be able to build that confidence? Because without doing it, you're not going to, have the same impact.

P.H. (24:36)
Yeah, desensitize yourself. Yeah.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (24:38)
Yes. absolutely. And then I'm also a workplace coach. So I support other organised, people in the organisation to build out those steps quite a lot of the time. It is that people are lacking confidence to go ahead and do something, whether that's, they're interested in promotion and that they don't know where to start. They don't know how to have that conversation with their manager, for example. So it's about being able to apply some coaching concepts to that as well.

P.H. (25:02)
Amazing. I mean what else do, what don't you do at GMCA? I did. thanks, there's a serious edge of workplace issues with a healthy dose of cheese. So you have recently completed your CIPD level 7 haven't you? I mean that's another thing that you're doing. Just last week!

Anna Foster-Ressel   (25:05)
You had to bring it in didn't you?
Yeah, so I submitted my last assignment. Well, I got the grades back from the last assignment last week. Yeah, so it's... I've done well, yeah. I've passed the course, yeah, with merits and distinctions, which is good. But yeah, it's been three and a half years of study alongside raising a young family and having a full -time job.

P.H. (25:33)
How did you do?

Wow.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (25:47)
Luckily, my wife is really supportive and has allowed me to do that and kind of taking the reins with a lot of things at home whilst I've been able to balance work and study. But yeah, it's been quite a journey. I think going back to the confidence kind of conversation is that has really helped me to understand what I'm doing is right. And I've got the right approach to work and actually...

also learn lots and lots of new things that I'm able to inject back into the organisation. I've got a really supportive manager who's also the director of people services. So the things that I'm learning, I'm able to come back into here, have you thought about this? And we're like, okay, yeah, let's introduce this into the new strategy, for example. So I'm being able to see that direct impact from learning into the organisation, which I do think has helped to build my confidence in me as a, you know,

people professional, also somebody that's developing in her own career as well.

P.H. (26:43)
That's phenomenal. That really is. I'm so pleased with you. Congratulations. That's a hard slog. That's like degree level, isn't it? Master's level. Yeah, yeah.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (26:46)
Thank you, yep. Yes. Yeah, masters level, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been a journey, but it's finished.

P.H. (26:56)
And it's interesting And that being able to apply it immediately in the workplace aspect is an echo of your degree. You were like learning and being out leading teams of

young people. It wasn't just theoretical. I guess you're a very practical person from that then.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (27:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing studying the course is you learn all this theory about models and everything else, you know, and actually applying it in practice never works that way, does it? It never goes the way that somebody's written it in a book, you know, and you can play it all day long, but actually, I think that's one thing that I really enjoy about my role is the difference in dynamics and the diversity of everything that I work, you know, work in is the challenges that come and the ability to be able to problem solve and to see, you know, a tangible outcome at the end of it.

It's never as easy as the theory and the straightforward process that's written into a book. There's always challenges that come.

P.H. (27:49)
So what's next for you, Anna?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (27:51)
What's next? I think, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think no more studies for a while. And I really think, you know, helping now is there's a next chapter for the GMC that we're working on. know, we've got a new kind of Labour government in place. There's going to be changes. So I think there's going to be lot of opportunities for us to to really, you know, shape the direction of Greater Manchester as an organisation, but as a people service as well.

P.H. (27:52)
Bit of a break. Take the load off your partner. For a while.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (28:20)
support the organisation to do that. So I'm excited about what's ahead at the moment and yeah, what's to come. lots of, I've done challenges that I can get my teeth into. Yeah.

P.H. (28:30)
Yeah. Well, Greater Manchester is very lucky to have you, Anna. I just think your work is phenomenal and the way you apply yourself is great. I mean, I'm not marking you. Obviously, it sounds a bit like I am. Well done, Anna. Excellent. Tick. No, I'm just really super impressed by your energy for it. You know, so often we think of downtrodden civil servants, public servants, local government workers. We've heard so much bad press, obviously.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (28:42)
Thank you.

Mm.

P.H. (28:57)
about the finances for local authorities and the challenges there. I think to have this positivity that you've got is phenomenal. Do you feel that your workplace is as confident or as positive as you? And I don't mean to be political in that kind of ask. It's like, how do you see confidence in others? Is it brought about by knowing their values, understanding the purpose, being passionate, that kind of thing, and seeing...

Anna Foster-Ressel   (28:59)
Mm. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm

P.H. (29:22)
the people they serve reflected in the organisation through diversity as well. Is there a nice sort of buoyancy to what the work that you do that would be an antidote to all of the press and the media impressions of you're hard pressed upon local government?

Anna Foster-Ressel   (29:27)
Yeah.

Yeah, wish I had a silver bullet for that, but I don't think I do have that. But I think, yeah, in terms of how confident is our workplace, I do think we are. And I think what comes with that is the reputation that we've all worked very hard to build and to maintain. I think that's probably one of the ingredients in terms of that nurturing and having been able to be confident in the first place is having that.

support and the chair leaders that will support you with that and within the organisation we definitely have that and that's not just internally but that's also externally with partners too. It's very much a collaborative approach the way that the GMCA works and I do think that helps to build that level of confidence within all of our employees. Of course confidence is quite subjective isn't it and you know what does confident mean to different people but I think if you looked at it as an organisation

P.H. (30:26)
Mm.

Anna Foster-Ressel   (30:29)
we're definitely seeing as confident and I would say that feeling is internal as well.