How HR can gain influence at board level – Carolyn Cole

Episode 12: Workplace Confidence Podcast
Where people professionals share the great work they do

How HR can gain influence at the board level . In this episode I talk with to Carolyn Cole, a seasoned Chief People Officer, about how HR leaders can build confidence, gain influence and make an impact at the highest levels of business.

Carolyn knows what it takes - she’s spent years shaping people strategy in fast-moving private equity (PE) environments. And in those spaces, HR isn’t just about policies and payroll - it’s about driving value.

"HR hasn't always caught up," she admits. "Often, businesses are experiencing rapid growth, but the people function is an afterthought. That’s where we step in - and if we do it right, we can be a huge asset at board level."

Carolyn explains, stepping up takes more than just expertise in HR. It’s about understanding what the business needs and how people drive success.

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Workplace Confidence PodcastListen to all episodes

HR being heard at the top

In this episode we hear how confidence at the top table doesn’t just arrive one day - it’s built. And, according to Carolyn, experience helps, but so does knowing how to position yourself.

"The biggest lesson I’ve learned? It’s about having the CEO’s ear. If you’ve got that, you’ve got influence."

For Carolyn, that means understanding the numbers. HR leaders who speak the language of business, forecasts, revenue, EBITDA- get taken seriously.

"Most HR professionals aren’t financially minded. We focus on people, not numbers. But if you want a seat at the table, you have to learn the financials. Find a finance person who’ll teach you, take a course - whatever it takes."

And it’s not just about learning finance - it’s about understanding how you complement your CEO.

"Two of the CEOs I’ve worked with were complete opposites to me - analytical, financially focused, straight to the numbers. But I had what they didn’t: emotional intelligence. One of them used to ring me and ask, ‘Carolyn, how will people feel about this?’ Because that wasn’t his instinct. That’s where I added value."

HR has power in PE-backed companies because investors know that people make or break a business. And that’s even more crucial during mergers and acquisitions.

Making mergers & acquisitions work for people

Carolyn has been at the centre of 12 acquisitions, bringing together different teams, cultures and ways of working. And she’s seen firsthand how badly it can go if people aren’t considered.

"You have to remember, most of the time, employees haven’t asked to be acquired. The owners did the deal. And often, they don’t find out until the last minute. It’s unsettling. You have to meet people where they are and take it slowly."

She’s not a fan of over-reliance on staff surveys to measure success.

"People are sick of surveys. I prefer real conversations—one-to-ones, stay interviews, watercooler chats. You learn more from a ten-minute check-in than from a hundred survey responses."

Bringing people into the fold isn’t about bombarding them with change, it’s about gentle integration.

"Wellbeing initiatives, small team-building moments, those little things help people feel part of something bigger. But you have to give it time. It takes a good 12 months to really embed a new culture."

Mental health: It’s not a tick-box exercise

Wellbeing isn’t a side project for Carolyn, it’s fundamental to a business. As a mental health first aid instructor, she’s passionate about embedding real mental health strategies across organisations. And she doesn’t sugarcoat it.

"Training is never enough," she says firmly. "You can put every line manager through a mental health course, but if they don’t use what they’ve learned, what’s the point? It has to be built into how a company operates."

She’d make mental health training mandatory for all managers, just like health and safety.

"People don’t always need you to solve things, they just need you to listen. But most managers panic. They’re scared of getting it wrong. So they avoid the conversation altogether. That’s what has to change."

And while some companies see mental health as a box to tick, Carolyn has seen firsthand what happens when the conversation opens up.

"I once had a CEO tell me, ‘We never had mental health issues here until you started.’ And I thought - wow. No, what happened is, I created an environment where people felt safe enough to talk. And that’s the goal, isn’t it?"

HR, influence, and what comes next

For HR professionals looking to step up, be heard, and shape the business, Carolyn’s advice is simple:

Understand finance, because numbers speak louder than policies.

Find your CEO’s blind spot and become the person who fills it.

Build your network, because confidence grows with support.

"I was once told: 'Build yourself a network—it’ll be the best thing you ever do.' And they were right. You need people outside your business who will challenge you, back you, and be brutally honest when you need it."

This episode is packed with insights for HR leaders who want to lead with confidence, navigate M&A, and shape a healthier, more resilient workplace.

More episodes

Leading HR with people, not policy – Maria Hawley

How HR can gain influence at board level – Carolyn Cole

Public sector recruitment, a passion for shaping talent in Greater Manchester – Anna Foster-Ressel

Inclusive recruitment, why two unconscious biases are better than one at BPP – Jen Hulme

Empowering leaders at the College of Policing – Becs Riley

Global HR challenges: the People At Work survey 2024 – Annabel Jones

Tackling the gender pay gap and promoting well-being at the NFU – Catherine Cooper

Building a legacy, leading with empathy and purpose at Property Tectonics – Esther Brady

How to lead smart people at Signature Discovery – James Edgar

Redefining success for women in law and leadership – Jane Ayaduray

People centric business at P3 People Management – Charlotte Dean

Transcript: How HR can gain influence at the board level with Carolyn Cole

Carolyn Cole (00:00)
I think so. My experience very much has been with the couple of investment companies, PE houses that I've worked with, is that it's fast paced. Often you go in and HR hasn't been prevalent because they're experiencing great growth, but HR hasn't always caught up. So they're very keen to get HR through the door, develop, grow. And therefore I think that's where the influence comes in because if with an experience and a background in HR, you can really show how you develop that company and really

gain further investment for future growth, but also keeping the people there, keeping them interested and watching that journey. So yeah, I think there is a good edge there for a HR professional.

P.H. (00:40)
Yeah.

And often with PE, and in many circumstances, to be honest, the acquiring of other companies, merging brands, getting strangers to sit next to each other in new office environments. How have you approached that in the past? I mean, one of the companies you worked at, you did something like 12 acquisitions, didn't you? Over a really short period of time, that's been ridiculous.

Carolyn Cole (01:12)
It is. The acquisitions in that particular company ranged from 14 people to 110 people and you can imagine there's a similar approach but also a different approach. Often the people in the business haven't been asked to be acquired, it's the owners that have done the deal and they often don't know until the last minute. So there is a huge degree of sensitivity and you've really got to sit down with people and actually just be with them, talk to them, understand their concerns. They are always worried how much it's going to change the culture.

And fundamentally you've bought and invested in that company because they're a great business with great culture. So you don't want to break that.

P.H. (01:48)
And what tools have you used to measure, manage that integration? Is it constant surveys for staff? What are you doing in order to know that you're on the right track, or is it simply retention?

Carolyn Cole (02:02)
For some of it's retention, I tend not to do the survey tool too much because people, much like Death by PowerPoint, people are a Death by survey too. And they don't have the time, they don't have the inclination. For me, it's working with your HR business partners, with myself, with the leaders, and just having really good sort of water cooler moments and measuring things in terms of anecdotal evidence, turning up, looking at the training, how people are staying, and doing what we call stay interviews.

So often 30, 60, 90 days in, we just have a one-to-one 10 minute conversation if that, just judging, are you feeling happy? Is there anything you're missing? Is there anything you expected that hasn't happened? Just three or four really simple questions to check in. But I think if you do it personally, that really helps. And if you've got a team and you're lucky enough to have a good team around you, then you can utilise that.

P.H. (02:57)
That's a lot of woman hours, isn't it, to be sitting down with people for a stay interview?

Carolyn Cole (03:00)
It is.

The acquisitions I've done are much smaller. So it affords me the time to do that. If we were doing thousands of people, hundreds of people, then I think we'd probably look at it a different way.

P.H. (03:13)
Is it possible? I'm quite, I'm fascinated how you would manage time-wise and effort and energy-wise to deal with a merger and acquisition moment or periods of due diligence in your organisation while still maintaining your ability to function as an HR director and steer the ship in a more general way.

Carolyn Cole (03:38)
It is a challenge. With the M&A work, you tend to have a plan of when that will come in and you have a degree of influence on when the new acquisition will land. And the work does come in flurries. So you have an initial flurry of meeting people, greeting people, and then it does go quiet because it is more administration in the background. And when I've...

done a lot of cheapy work around the acquisition so you can time all of that. So it is looking and judging how that's going to work. For instance, you don't want to be doing a big cheapy exercise in the middle of your pay review and your appraisal rounds and all of that. So some of it requires the planning and really having your team on board with you so you can delegate the work out should you need to, make sure it's spread around so everyone's got everyone's back in that.

I am slightly guilty of extra hours when it comes to the acquisition side of things. And there are some things you have to be sensible and you just have to press pause on and say that initiative, we're actually just going to hold on that for a couple of months because this acquisition, the priority is making sure it lands okay. So it's challenge and each one is very different, but sometimes you just have to work through it.

P.H. (04:53)
Yeah, and keeps it varied, doesn't it?

Carolyn Cole (04:57)
Absolutely, it's one of the things I like about it. The day job isn't dull.

P.H. (05:01)
Yeah, so gosh, this all sounds like you have to have quite a load of confidence personally in order to navigate, support your board and executive leadership team in getting this across the line. It sounds like you might just have, and I alluded to it earlier.

a little more influence at these times because people are so important. Have you found your voice develop over these experiences and become stronger every time with more experience and has your confidence increased?

Carolyn Cole (05:42)
Absolutely and it's not just my confidence, it's about the surrounding team at the board level. So I've been very lucky to work with some very, very good CEOs, couple that really stand out to me. I have unfortunately worked with a couple of not so great CEOs where your voice is shrunk, but those CEOs have really been very people focused and therefore given you that airspace as much as me demanding that airspace.

because the success of any PE house is around the growth, the M&A work, and that is based on people. And if you're not listening to your people person, then it's not going to be successful. And a lot of acquisitions fail because of that. So I have found that having that belief of a CEO, the relationship with the CEO, and really having that person in my corner does help. And I suppose my confidence has grown. So I'm going back to work for a CEO I worked for before.

he's come to find me and offer me a position. So I suppose on a confidence front, I must have done something right with all those acquisitions for him to come back and look for me to start to work in the new business he's in. yeah, the voice definitely grows the more you do it and the experience, isn't it? know, the more experience you put behind you, the better.

P.H. (06:42)
haha

Yeah, it's one of them big challenges I keep hearing from HR professionals that they just wish that they could have more influence at board level. just would just know that it would just be so much better if they could have an authority voice rather than being seen as, and it depends on the organization obviously, being seen as a functional transactional, you know, supply department if you like, to increase that HR voice.

Any tips for people who are kind of knocking on a closed door at the moment? How could they open that? Is it about allyship? Is it about leveraging experience? Is it gaining more commercial experience?

Carolyn Cole (07:39)
I think being commercial really helps. The more you can show interest in the whole business, not just the people side of things. generally HR people aren't financially minded and apologies for anyone who is particularly financially minded, but I tend to find we don't think that way. We think more about the people. understanding what your EBITDA, what your revenue is, what your sales are, what you're forecasting, all of that side of things will help. And there's plenty of finance people that you can.

tap up to help you understand that there's lots of courses out there for non-finance people. But for me, it's always been the relationship with the CEO because if you have his ear or her ear, then you really have got leverage. And that's about understanding. So the two CEOs I work with are absolute opposite characters to me. So they are analytical, they are financial minded, they think very differently, but it's introducing how I complement them.

And I think that is a real top tip for me. So one of them would say to me, he'd think of something he wanted to implement and he'd call me and say, Carolyn, how will people feel? Because he won't think about the feel. He'll think about the numbers, the figures, the delivery, but he won't get the feel. So it's that emotional intelligence bit that I was better at. So getting a CEO to work out what kind of character, where his strengths are, where you might compliment sometimes is the leverage that

you can give because then you become their partner as opposed to the person that they're just giving the task to.

P.H. (09:12)
Interesting. Question for you. Your career path ahead of you, given that you have so much experience, is a CEO role something that you would consider? I'm not offering you one by the way.

Carolyn Cole (09:26)
No,

I don't want to. I absolutely love being a Chief People Officer HR Director role. I still get to play in the zone of going down into policies and processes and your grassroots of the role, which is great. I'm really invested in people and I enjoy so much seeing people grow.

And I think if I step too far away from that, then I'll lose some of what makes me happy.

P.H. (10:00)
It struck me the other day that it's not, you don't ever really hear of a story, I've never heard of one of you, where an HR director has become the CEO. It's normally the chief operating officer or the FD whose path it is to step across or step up a bit. Imagine a world populated where HR directors have become MDs or CEOs. What do you reckon?

Carolyn Cole (10:09)
No, it's fine.

You

It will definitely make some interesting viewing what that business would be like. Sounds like a good social experiment someone should try and see what happens. Absolutely, let's put them in and see how it works.

P.H. (10:32)
Yes, it's a big beauty documentary, let's do it.

Will your company succeed or fail? Let's find out. Yeah, brilliant.

Carolyn Cole (10:42)
Yes, in

the hands of HR.

P.H. (10:47)
A couple of things then that you, as well as being a super wizard at PE, M&A, all the good stuff, all the acronyms, at the heart of what you do is wellbeing, isn't it? You're a mental health first aider. How did you get into all of that? And how do you see that playing out in organizations across the country? Is it something that people feel that they've done? We've got that now, we've got mental health, you know.

Carolyn Cole (10:56)
Mmm.

P.H. (11:16)
sorted.

Carolyn Cole (11:18)
I there's two very different scapes. There's people that go and train, so I train mental health first aid as well as being an instructor. So I've been instructor for about four years now and I was very luckily sponsored by the construction industry which has some rough statistics. So two people die by suicide every day in the UK in the construction industry. So that's some motivation that started for me and really quite scary statistics.

P.H. (11:32)
Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Cole (11:45)
But also from a personal and professional basis, professionally, lots of people talk to you about mental health and I think if you have no degree of understanding, you can't help. But also personally, I've had people in and around myself that have really been impacted by mental health conditions. And I think the difference for me is it's great to train people and I would never take away from that, but training is never enough. So like with anything, whether you do leadership training, management training, wellbeing training,

you can do all you like in a classroom, it's what happens after the fact. for me, it's all about, I never put restriction on how many people train, I train the whole company given the opportunity. For me, it's about what you do afterwards, how you embed it, how you make a safe space for people if they are struggling or they are living with a mental health condition, how you create that, but then also how you look after the mental health first aiders because any challenging conversation has an emotional impact. And I think that's

person walking away from that then needs someone to just check in with them and look after them. for me it's the real embedding properly and safely and considerably of the mental health strategy. So which tips into the whole wellbeing piece for me. But as you all know, I'm quite passionate about

P.H. (13:00)
If you had a magic wand, what would you change in the mix? Would it be greater psychological safety for teams and their line managers? Would you encourage line managers to be better at this? There are so many people off with stress. It's record numbers, 10 year high. Stress is obviously anxiety, low mood, depression. It's mental health problems are massive at work, probably.

due to the fallout from COVID and beyond and working from home a lot more. What would you give an organization if you had a power to do that, that would change things?

Carolyn Cole (13:36)
I'd use my genie for at least two wishes. One would be, I'd make it.

P.H. (13:41)
that's the, I'd said one, but go on. I know how you're getting on with CEOs

now. It's like, yeah, you want to give me one thing? I actually want two. Yeah. Good for you. Go on. Have two.

Carolyn Cole (13:48)
Here's my negotiation tool. So I would make

it mandatory for all line managers to have training. So there is no choice. So there's no, I can get out of it. So as much as we do health and safety training, manual handling, all of that sort of good stuff, I would make it mandatory because my experience is that everyone has tended training with me and this is not an ego thing around how good my training is, but every person I've trained, it's made a difference too.

P.H. (14:17)
What, in what way

has it increased their self-awareness?

Carolyn Cole (14:20)
They're just how to have a conversation. So it's not necessarily about, you know, here's all the different conditions and here's the understanding. It's a bit about learning to listen properly and actively listening, how to have some really good open questions that we learn in lots of other courses, but we don't apply and not to be scared about that because I think a lot of us, we don't know it. So we therefore step away from it. Whereas if we just walked in and said, I don't understand, tell me more.

That's a really honest but open way of approaching things. So I would have that. I think that would then in turn be my wishes. I would like people to stop judging people because there's it's under reported. So all the statistics that we have are scary, but they'll be worse because there's businesses, I've worked in a business where a very, very senior person said, Carolyn, we didn't have mental health issues here until you started.

P.H. (14:51)
and then.

my word,

Carolyn Cole (15:19)
I know,

P.H. (15:19)
no, no.

Carolyn Cole (15:20)
I know, I know can you believe someone said that and just to the record I didn't cause mental health issues but I opened up the conversation so people felt comfortable but you have judgment and stigma like that. No, I know.

P.H. (15:30)
looking at.

We didn't have a gender pay gap until those ladies started working. That kind of idea. Wow, okay, so stop judging.

How would you encourage people to stop judging?

Carolyn Cole (15:45)
I think, I mean it's education and training is your basis for all of it. And the more you can get some advocates doing that training, the more that spreads in a culture and it becomes accepted because people challenge people.

P.H. (15:47)
Mm.

I used to be really judgy. I used to, well, I used to be really judgy, but it was born out of an environment where it was transactional journalism. It was like, look you up and down. Yeah, what can I get from you? What can you get from me? Are you going to make a interviewee? Are you going to make a good guest? Have you got a good story? And it was so quick and rapid that when you're under pressure, those are your quick shortcuts, aren't they, to understanding a situation and a person is to judge. But.

Carolyn Cole (16:02)
We'll judge a bit.

Absolutely.

P.H. (16:28)
you know, obviously it wasn't a team where we had to like speak to each other and be better as a team. We actually all had to go out on our own. We're lone wolves as journalists. Does it depend on the environment as to how judgy you can get then?

Carolyn Cole (16:35)
you

I

think the problem is, and there's a generational thing, there's a trust thing, there's lots that goes on with it. I hear lots of line managers, know, people default to my mental health being affected. Well, mental health lives with us every day. It goes up, it goes down during the day, week to week, month to month. And I think people judge mental health as they take it to the extreme or they think people are using it as an excuse. Whereas actually, if we just understood a bit more and step back and thought.

what is affecting somebody. There's got to be a bit of a balance around it, but people do judge. And there are people that aren't always honest about it. You know, there are people that still call in with Mondayitis and Fridayitis.

P.H. (17:19)
Yeah.

And those are the people that make the headlines or they rise to the, you know, they get your attention, don't they, unfortunately.

Carolyn Cole (17:24)
Yeah.

Yeah,

so it's difficult challenge for managers. It is difficult, but we need to find a way to of bridge the gap between the two.

P.H. (17:35)
And that greater diversity helps that, doesn't it? You the more different people around you you have, the more likely it is you'll understand difference. That's the theory anyway, isn't it?

Carolyn Cole (17:40)
Absolutely.

For me it's an education thing and I talked about future business around having some of the sort of been there will share buddies so people who been there experienced it can share it. Those powerful stories really help people just understand what challenges around what people have to go through and it's the diversity of thought is so important how people think and feel differently. more we share the better we get at it.

P.H. (18:15)
I read some shocking stats about people not willing to discuss. I say shocking, I wasn't that shocked, I was just surprised at the level really. know, getting on for most people would not discuss their mental health challenges with their line manager willingly. So give us a couple of tips on how you might kickstart a conversation, not as an employee but as a line manager, how you might encourage.

conversations, would it be about sharing and being vulnerable yourself on that kind of thing?

Carolyn Cole (18:45)
I think

absolutely. There's a huge amount about being vulnerable as a line manager. think we grew up with the, need to be bit perfect, you need to strong image, never get it wrong. And I think sometimes putting your hands up saying, I have a bad day or I'm wobbling or not all the time, but showing a degree of vulnerability or putting your hands up and being honest, because we all make mistakes and we're all human.

P.H. (19:08)
How do you encourage

that? How do you get people to do that?

Carolyn Cole (19:12)
It's hard, it is hard, but I think you can lead by example. So I often with my teams, if we've gone about something that just hasn't worked, I'll go, well, we made a mistake, you know, probably in slightly less polite a language, but we've made a mistake. We need to go back, we need to think about it. But how do we do that better? You know, how do we ask questions? How do we, but let's go and say to people, you know, this wasn't right. We want to do it differently. How can we work better with you?

P.H. (19:16)
Right, OK, yeah.

Carolyn Cole (19:40)
I think with managers, sometimes it's just courage. And if they don't want to be vulnerable, or they don't have experience, they can just use really good questions. Say, how do you feel? How's things working for you? Talk to me about it. Tell me more, what else? Lots of really good questions. So they don't always have to give something, but they also need to listen. And how many times do we talk to people? We're still tapping on our...

P.H. (19:51)
me more about that.

Carolyn Cole (20:03)
emails or reading our phone or thinking what's the next thing I've got to ask you before I've listened to your answer. It's really been in the moment for people. So some of the vulnerability is being there and listening as much as it is sharing.

P.H. (20:17)
It's behaviors, isn't it, in managers that we can really affect change through. Just things like, I heard someone the other day going, had a check-in or a kind of, know, quarterly review, personal development thing, and they knew that I'd had a few issues, yet they didn't turn up. Well, they canceled last minute. It's like, hmm, okay, they're probably extenuating circumstances, hopefully, but.

Carolyn Cole (20:22)
Absolutely.

We're at the end.

Yeah.

P.H. (20:43)
You know, it's that kind

of thing, isn't it? It's like taking people seriously.

Carolyn Cole (20:47)
Yeah, and creating the environment. So you want a trusted environment. You want to feel safe, don't you? You talked about psychological safety. You to feel safe. if somebody, you're not feeling important to that person because they've cancelled and there's no explanation, you're not suddenly going to share something, are you? You're going to feel more guarded. So if that person comes back and says, I've had a family emergency, I had to leave, and you get an explanation, you can build that back up. But if it's just left, then it changes the dynamics, doesn't it?

P.H. (21:16)
Yeah, okay. So, gender pay gap, let's solve that then as well. Carolyn, you're on fire. It's a Monday morning as well. This is fantastic. So we've sorted out well-being and mental health, tick. Gender pay gap, you ran a very successful program at your previous organization, which changed the dial for...

Carolyn Cole (21:21)
No.

Okay. Yep.

P.H. (21:42)
60 % of the women on it, was it just, is it only women, was it gender specific? So 60 % of those people who attended, took part, actually got promotion, which in my book is stepping towards closing a gender pay gap, isn't it?

Carolyn Cole (21:47)
Yes, yeah, it was.

Absolutely. And especially in, it was within the construction industry, which is always a challenge because it's usually about 80 % male. So you've got a small pot of people, often women who are working in pure male teams. So don't have that network and connection. And for me, it started all out, actually attended a conference run by a PE house and my CEO came out of it. It was about, you know, closing the gap and not always having male CEOs and male around the table.

And he said to me, what do you want to do? What do you want to do? And I said, you know what, I think I'd like to run a women in business club. And he went, great, go for it. And that was great for somebody to invest in that. So he gave me a budget, almost unheard of, and we launched a coffee club, which stood for creating opportunities for excellence. So we started that out and we did all manner. So some of it was we started the course with confidence.

We had an outside trainer come in and look at what confidence is, what it is and why it varies from male to female, how that plays out, a little bit around the neuroscience. And we kicked off from there. So we revisited that course 12 months later and looked at people's scores on themselves and everybody had progressed. But it was amazing, not just the input and the commitment from people to take time out of their day and come along. If they couldn't make the course, then they'd catch up with somebody else in the course, find out what they'd missed.

and we got together once or twice a year, which was amazing because we were scattered all across the UK. But actually seeing people apply the learning, come back and share their stories, but go off into their own little pods and connect with each other. So groups of two or three of them would have catch up calls and challenge each other. So it creates that real network, that power for them to have people to talk to and speak to. So it was amazing to see.

People that wanted promotions were going for them. People wanted to just get out of certain job and almost laterally step into something more technical, for example. They were taking that step, which for me is just job satisfaction completely.

P.H. (24:09)
Yeah,

absolutely. It's powerful, isn't it? And you can have so many inputs on the program that I've got. It's a six month program, few inputs on skills and confidence. Yeah, sure. But skills, communication, but it was the, it's the group coaching element, isn't it? It's the group. Like you say, I'm thinking of applying for that job, right? And then someone, everyone else piles in and goes, yeah, you should go for it. And then a conversation around, if you want some help with the application or you want to,

Carolyn Cole (24:12)
Yes.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

P.H. (24:38)
practice the interview, give me a shout. And then all of a sudden you've got this rich seam of peer group mentoring and support and holding you accountable as well. When you say, really want to do that. And then six months later, someone reminds you that you said that. I find that useful.

Carolyn Cole (24:45)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. just think, and those networks continue. So no matter how long you've run the club, the programme, it's just that that continues and people use that experience to then share with others outside of that networking group. And that's where you get that ripple effect, isn't it? That's just outstanding. It just makes you so proud that it's had that impact.

P.H. (25:15)
And another interesting aspect, I don't know if you noticed this or had anecdotal references of it, is that when you are that person helping another or giving advice or sharing an experience, the feeling of the value that you bring and the reminder that you've got that experience is phenomenally powerful in an intangible way, isn't it? How would you describe that?

Carolyn Cole (25:38)
you.

It just, for me, it's, I remember being interviewed when I went for the first sort of head of HR role and they said, what gives you job satisfaction? And I said, impact and influence. When I can see that I've had an impact on a person, a team, a business, and I've had some sort of positive influence, it just ticks all my boxes. It's that golden moment, you know, where you just feel that elation. But for me, it's just watching those people go on and do more and better that they want to do.

but just didn't have it without a little bit of your input. So it feels magical. It's the magical moment, isn't it?

P.H. (26:17)
Yeah,

fantastic. Well, congratulations. That was brilliant. And you're going to carry that onto your future role, aren't you?

Carolyn Cole (26:20)
Thank you.

have a new role starting in a month and I look forward to once I've got my feet under the table and bedded in and learnt a little bit about the business and the culture, starting something for women in business there as well.

P.H. (26:35)
amazing. Okay, so your own confidence. You mean you sound super confident, you know what you're doing. I can imagine you arriving at work, right, getting out of the car. Do you drive? Okay, so do get out of the car. Okay, and like just strutting, striding through the car park. I'm going to think like hair in the wind, just like slow-mo. Yeah, Carolyn's here, she's going to sort it all out.

Carolyn Cole (26:47)
Yes, I do.

you

P.H. (27:00)
I feel really safe talking to you and asking you questions and you know what you're doing. I love that and you take that to work. Have you always felt like that? Do you feel like that?

Carolyn Cole (27:12)
I'm not sure about the hair in the wind moment. It's probably more tangled up and all over the place. I do say, I often say it to my team when I work with them is I put my big girl pants on some days and Bridget Jones style and walk in and think it's fine. I don't always think about things too much because I think sometimes you can get in your own head and worry about things. So I sometimes just leap without thinking.

P.H. (27:14)
go on.

Right, yeah.

Okay, does

Carolyn Cole (27:40)
Hey, Little Eats.

P.H. (27:40)
that work out for you? Because that's a really good thing to be able to do is not to spend too much time in indecision, which can erode confidence. But is that a conscious thing? You just go, right, let's just get stuck in.

Carolyn Cole (27:52)
It is. It wouldn't have been. I would have overthought things in the past and analysed and I can keep visiting that place but I consciously think actually do I need to think about this or do I need to just go with my gut sometimes or just walk in.

P.H. (28:06)
When did you start thinking like that?

Carolyn Cole (28:09)
I did a lot of work around values and who I am and what I want as a person. think often where I've grown up it's been, you you go to work and you'd be grateful for having a job and doing all of that. And whereas I thought actually people need, I've got really good experience and I want the person to want me as much as I want that job. It's a bit of a 50-50. So it's flipped for me around doing a lot of personal work around who I am and what I am and being comfortable with that.

P.H. (28:38)
And that personal work in terms of deciding your values, how did you approach that? What advice would you give to other people? Because that's one of the things I recommend people do is that they work on their values. There's fantastic research by a woman called Kelly McGonigal who says that just studying your values and your beliefs for 10 minutes, 10 minutes can set you up.

for a really, really long stint of greater confidence. You're more likely to build networks, you're less likely to engage in negative thoughts and self-talk, and the list goes on, it's fantastic. So let's do 10 minutes. So how would a person go about, set about looking at their own values, not the company values, their own values? Would you recommend?

Carolyn Cole (29:22)
No.

Yeah,

for me, and I had a mentee through HR network and we worked on this together. I always think it's helpful if you do work with somebody because I think and somebody who can hold you to account, somebody who can be really brutally honest with you, not somebody who's going to smile and nod and agree with everything you say. So you have to pick the right person. And I worked with her on it and I, know, same as I did, I wrote down everything I thought was my value.

And then we started breaking it down and sort of saying, what's the top six and how many can you actually remember? So if I say to you, what are your values? You can't remember six often or 10 or that. So let's get to a number that makes it, know, realistic. And we worked through them and worked, you know, what do I get distraught about if this doesn't happen for me? You know, when I'm in a workplace or a personal place, what can I not compromise on or?

would make me walk out of job or walk out of a situation. So you start exploring the really strong feelings, because often people say, my value is family. Well, you're quite hard pushed to find lot of people that won't find family or friends as a value in some sense. But is that what you stand for? Not really. So it's trying to differentiate.

P.H. (30:44)
To be honest, I'd be first

out of the building if it was coming down and I'd leave my family behind, be honest. They sought themselves out. I'm not being serious, or am I? mean, could be, because I could say family is a value, but is it? No, I don't think of myself as a wife or a mother first. I think of myself as a business owner who helps other people. And that's like, you know, that's the value. Am I bad person? No.

Carolyn Cole (30:47)
you

Precisely, and it is one. Yeah.

Hi.

Absolutely. it's, no, no, there's plenty

of people. I'd save the cat first. Yes, hopefully. I think for me, it's differentiating what is like the value. So getting people like the family one going, that's not what we're talking about. Put that to a side. We get the, whether whatever that relationship is, but that's not what you stand for. And I think it's then filtering out. And for me, it's testing them.

P.H. (31:14)
Right, yeah, or the cat would save you.

Carolyn Cole (31:33)
So not settling on three or four is actually testing them. So my experience is minor trust, creativity and connections. So when I go into a role or I'm looking at a role or I'm in a business, I'm going, have I got trust in my team? Do they trust me? Do I trust them? What's my stakeholder arrangements? What's my relationship with CEO? And I appreciate, can't always have it 100 % when you're in a new role, you've got to earn some of this, but do I feel that trust? Can I just get on with things? Can I make good decisions?

Do I have connection? Is that with my team? Is it with the people around me, the stakeholders, the senior leadership team, the private equity house? Do I have that connection where I think things can flow? Do I have that network around me? And then for me, creativity is I'm super creative and if I don't get allowed to do it, I might explode. So being able to create things in the workplace and not all the time, but being able to do that. And if I've got that environment that has at least two of those values playing out.

I'm a happy person. So I think with anybody, I would say, put them down, put the six down. And with a view, you might have three or four that are really strong for you, but test them. When you're happy, when you're satisfied, when you're work, what's playing out right or wrong, or if you're unhappy, what's being compromised. So if I've been unhappy, often it's been the connections lost and I don't feel the trust and therefore it's two out of three not working for me. So actually I need to then make that.

P.H. (32:46)
Yeah.

Carolyn Cole (32:59)
you know, decision where I go, is this right for me? Do I want to continue? Can I change it or do I need to just walk away? And it helps me make decisions.

P.H. (33:07)
It's those moments where your values are compromised that you can maybe find your values, I think.

Carolyn Cole (33:13)
Absolutely,

absolutely and you need to recall some of those situations. I've had situations where I've been asked to do things and I think no, absolutely not. That compromises my level of integrity in a business or me as a HR professional and actually I'm not comfortable so you have to work out those ones that really really you know compromise you.

P.H. (33:35)
And when, for me, when I first discovered the idea of your own personal values, you didn't have to have them on a mouse mat, know, wasn't like on a website, you didn't have to have them there, could just stick them on a post-it. It really helped me think about what I wanted to do more of as well. And when I wasn't feeling super confident, they were there. And they gave me the confidence and they galvanized me to move forward on things.

Carolyn Cole (33:44)
Yeah?

Absolutely.

P.H. (34:03)
There is power in values, it's so impressive that you've got those and that has helped you inform your decision making process as well.

Carolyn Cole (34:10)
Absolutely, it's helped me decide whether I stay in a job or I don't stay in a job, stay working for a certain leader. It really has and I've used that with other people and I've said to them, it will help you decide what's right or wrong in a situation because you are ticking those values boxes for you. And also, you know, it's a decision maker but it's also an opportunity to challenge yourself and say, there something I can change that will then fall in line with my values? Because sometimes we have the power to do that, sometimes we don't. But I find it useful.

P.H. (34:39)
Just go full circle

then, just go full circle right back to the beginning. The idea of having more impact and influence at board level and with senior leadership teams in order to push the people agenda, if you like, or remind everyone it needs to be there. And this is how we can move forward through our people. Has the confidence then built as you have built that experience as well? So it does come, it is a virtuous circle, isn't it?

Carolyn Cole (35:09)
It is, it is. The more experience you get, the more confidence you get. And for me, it's around the network, the people, your experience having right people around you, listening to you. And once you've landed a few things, it then really builds that confidence even further to then go, well, I've done that, so what's next and what can I do? And you can then sort of push those boundaries with the CEOs saying, well, this worked, why don't we try this and utilize that? But it does come full circle with all of it.

P.H. (35:38)
And then I was just something really woo-woo stepped into my head there. I went, you can step into your power. Yes.

Carolyn Cole (35:44)
yes, absolutely.

You can have your t-shirt with your values on and do your Amy Cuddy pose. It is, it's absolutely, absolutely.

P.H. (35:49)
I think so. I think this works. Brilliant.

What would you like to give the listeners right now who are people professionals like you

What learning have you got to share with us?

Carolyn Cole (36:03)
I think for me, the best advice I had from a CEO that I'm steal and pretend it's mine now is build yourself a network, Carolyn. Someone said to me, it'd be the best thing you ever do in your entire career. And probably slightly different from the network I have, but I have a huge professional network. And sometimes that's around technical HR, sometimes it's just really good people in different areas of business. But all of them have different skills and different things you can.

that they can bring to you as a connection and you vice versa. And I think for me, any HR professional needs to have a network.

And it builds your confidence because nine times out of 10, they really will just give you that pat on the back. They'll encourage you, they'll cheer you. No matter what, they'll pick you up when you're down. So I think for me, go find yourself a network. And there are so many options out there.

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Personnel Today

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